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silly example Mike you just cheapen this whole topic and appear you don’t know what you’re talking about. Because I know by comparing what having real spiritual gifts feels like. I have confidence in what I offer in service to others that I don’t need wierwille’s counterfeit validation or someone’s silly analytics to blow smoke up my a$$ to make me feel good about myself. is one of your theater friends named Kermit? its time to put on makeup it’s time to light the lights god I love that show! here’s the thing. I believe if someone has a gift they know it. In the natural realm , if someone has a gift for investing, painting, building repairing - whatever- they know it! Schooling and experiences may help hone their skills but the gift to almost effortlessly do whatever they do at any stage in their career I would think comes naturally. that does not make you a lingusitic expert i could do my schtick all different ways - and had a few pat phrases - doesn't mean anything or prove anything. all that was done by me deliberately thinking and articulating what phony foreign language words to say repetitiveness means NOTHING unless it's actual words using a real language. you don't understand what is being said. I had a lab/springer spaniel who would get excited when we played with her and she'd start making weird noises like she was trying to roll her "R"s. sounded funny. was it a language ? don't know I only speak poor English. you need to take a long hard look at the instances of SIT in Acts. Certain Witnesses understood the language. That’s what authenticated it! wierwille and sycophants use tongues of angels as a gimmick to hide behind the fact their tongues produced in mass quantities all over PFAL-ville are languages…what is the language of angels? Get some linguistic experts on it - languages of any race , species or beings will follow the norms of what makes a language. can’t believe I bought into wierwille’s fakery for 12 years! how so? I could do my schtick for a loooooooooo zzzZZZzzzz zzzZZZZzz ng time. oh there is lot's of motivation to fake it. new students don't want to look like they failed. You don't want to be the only one in the class who DOESN'T manifest...you're kidding yourself if you think there was no pressure on new students to speak in tongues...class coordinators got called on the carpet if they report a new grad didn't manifest. and while we're on the subject of manifestations - I challenge you to study I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 in the Greek text and in alternate translations...wierwille steered us wrong ! the Holy Spirit does the distributing of gifts - not some VHS or Betamax tape from TWI...and you don't need a class to be taught how to serve with a gift energized by the Holy Spirit - - it's NOT dependent on you and wierwille coaching you to use your dinky holy car battery. The Holy Spirit is a person! Not an inanimate car battery! In our language we capitalize proper names - Holy Spirit - so it's not holy spirit...and here I play by T-Bone's house rules so it's wierwille and NOT Wierwille because there's nothing proper about a pathological liar, drunkard, lying-thieving-weasel, plagiarizing, megalomaniac, abusive, egotistical, exploitative, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, cult-leader...if I left anything out - let me know... ...so with all of your great analytical skills examining spiritual things - taking note of repetitiveness, intensity and modulation - how come you've never noticed that wierwille was a repeat offender, an unrepentant sinner, a career criminal with many talents, distortions and transforming himself into a man-of-God? Maybe you're hearing things...I've noticed you miss a lot of details - not reading long posts by others - taking forever to read Undertow...seems like you have the attention span of a cat - and that makes you a linguistic expert? get well soon what ?!?! that's all you've got ?!?! you call them "the most clear ones". ?!?! oi vey - this thread is doomed

NO! Not so fast! Gads! That is a whole lotta salad! I didn’t miss anything. It seems you failed to understand my post. I’ll reread your repost when I’m not so busy and have lots of time. Time. Meanwhile, your repost will find a cozy new home in one of my folders.

A friend of a friend of mine's cousin's wife once saw a space alien. I, too, was a bit skeptical until I found out that her nephew had been a janitor at NASA and confirmed her description closely matched an alien he had seen in a Sci-Fi thriller in the 1950s. Life sure is strange. (Be right back. I have to go drop some coins in that parking meter I found using the law of believing.) edit: She no longer posts here, but you can take my word on this.

Another disingenuous pile of horse puckey. Somehow VP struggled with the topic before going off the self publication isolationist cliff. Oh but Mikey was solid on all the concepts way before the book even came out. Then latched onto it with all of his minuscule ostrich head burying tactics. The only “systematic scouring” that ever happens there is censorship of material presented by the entire body of Christ. Jesus Christ appeared to Thomas in his resurrected body. Jesus Christ exhorted Thomas to touch his side and to look at his hands with the nail prints from the cross. He confronted him and said “stop doubting but believe”. When Thomas followed the instruction of the resurrected Christ he said “my Lord and God”. Jesus didn’t correct him. If VP was right in his apostasy, then Jesus would have said “Thomas all glory goes to my Father, as I am just a resurrected man”. You see God Himself has foreknowledge, and would have seen what a large divide that would be caused by Arianism in the future so would have protected His Word and Body of Christ by a simple clarification there. But He didn’t. Why not? It was the perfect opportunity to correct a slight error in statement. Jesus corrected them on so many other aspects of scripture and concept that it would be ludicrous to assume he would let go such a major error here in his perfectly renewed mind and body. What is the hucksters so called solution that I supposedly didn’t pay attention to or retain according to Mike? Oh it’s an “orientalist” that supposedly means “my godly lord”. What in the literal f? Orientalisms or eastern expressions do not substitute the infinite for the finite. But what it does illustrate is VPs absolute dedication to the stupid “keys to the Words interpretation “ where he feels that the “difficult verses must be understood in light of the clear verses”. Chapter and verse on that one? Not a chance it is something made up in the mind of Wierwille. You can’t magnify 1 Tim 2:5 and throw away John 20:27,28. Well obviously you can because that’s what VP did in the JCNG book. To me that verse in John 20:28 indicates that if you don’t accept Jesus as “my Lord and God” like the paradigm example in the Bible did, then you are doubting and do not believe. Understand the difficult verses for themselves, don’t dumb them down and force square pegs into round holes. Or you are left with an idol. A dashboard bobblehead Jesus, and a bronze statue of Wierwille. Emerson wrote “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”. That is what all of this artificial shoe horning or scripture is. Apparent contradictions introduce a duality in concept, as opposed to a logical fallacy that has to be resolved. There is no need to resolve logical fallacies. Just accept the duality as it was given. Then like all the rest of the body of Christ you have a common goal with so many other non cult followers in the world. Also I think Mikes motivation to pick on this topic is to cause division amongst those seeking to eradicate the illogical Way Bible interpretations from their lives. Regardless of what you believe regarding the deity of Christ, accepting him as Lord and Savior gets you born again and part of a large family and body of Christ.

cool - I think what you admit here is honest... HOWEVER - rather than insisting the ideas are hidden somewhere in Scripture is NOT cool - it's not being honest with the Word of God. For something to keep popping up in your head might just mean you need to look elsewhere than the Bible. Have you ever given much thought to philosophy of religion ? Philosophy of religion is the philosophical examination of the central themes and concepts involved in religious traditions...it's not biblical theology...you get to examine and evaluate other religions. Philosophical discussions on such topics date from ancient times, and appear in the earliest known texts concerning philosophy. The field is related to many other branches of philosophy, including metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. Last few years I've gotten more into and enjoy reading and learning stuff from Taoism, Confucianism - will check out Zoroastrianism soon. ..The Case for God by Karen Armstrong is another good book - there is often commonality in all religions when they try to address the big questions of life.

Did you mean to say YOUR INTENTION was to calm the discussion down somewhat? Your intention appears not to have translated into a message which could accomplish such an objective. Do you REALLY think how you were actually viewing your statements matters at all to anyone? Not just here, but anywhere? Let me see, I'll try it for you, see if this makes any sense to you, Honestly Mike, WTF? More than two decades of doing the same thing and you expect different results?

Is it just my imagination or does it seem like T-Bone's questions were sidestepped?

Mike, a few questions: What does watching a grad succumb to trinity pressures look like? And what were those pressures that you wrestled with? How did you notice grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God in their minds? How did you know they held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches? If they mouthed the phrases of JCNG – how did you know they still held Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds? What does this Trinity stuff and disparaging grads who still believe in divinity of Christ have to do with God’s budget, double doors and scarcity of miracles?