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Did Saint Vic know that he knew that he knew? Depends on what you think he knew. I, personally, think he knew he was running a con. Proof of this is in the POP paper. Saint Vic went to G33r whining that Martindale was "ruining the whole thing.* Just what was the "whole thing?" Upon leaving that meeting, Saint Vic said, "Well bring it back." Notice, in both instances, there was no ta!k of for the glory of God, or the people needing the Word. Just ruining the 'whole thing" and "bringing it back.' Saint Vic was talking about ruining the con and that he wanted to bring it back.

Hey Rocky and Stayed, I found a 20 year old forgiveness thread here discussing many things I don’t care that much to rehash. Funny people seemed tired of the topic 22 years ago as well I mean you have to forgive people on the daily IMO or you will drive yourself crazy.

https://web.archive.org/web/20071011022908/http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/ Here’s a wayback machine archive from 2007. All the links to Waydale documents are on the left and work.

Yah, forgiveness. Everytime my mother would betray me, she would want to be forgiven. "We've got to start over from scratch," she would say. So I would forgive and forget and all she was really doing was setting me up for her to do the same thing all over again. It sound to me like you want us to forgive and forget. God require us to forgive, he says nothing about us having to forget. God says we are to be as wise a serpents, which includes not falling into the same trap again. The ministry sending out time to come home cards feels like deja vu all over again. The type of forgiveness you want us to have requires trust and trust is earned.

Some interesting stuff there. But I looked at an old WC notes section, a rant from Craig in about 2006, and I just wanted to yell back at him about all the stuff that was WRONG in his haha "teaching" or rant or whatever you call it. How contradictory in so very many ways. How overbearingly bullying. How demanding everything was and how it demeaned EVERY believer. Seriously unhinged. Not surprising I was so f'ked up when the M&A'd me. Several years of these rants and no ability to say, hey mate, ease up a bit! The documents that I glanced at on the old site enraged me. (Possibly even with cult-brain, they'd have pi$$ed me off badly.) Maybe, sometimes it's good to look back at where we came from, and realise just what prisons we have been released from .

I have every single one. If anyone wants them, send me a message here at GSC.

Ha! “The whole thing.” Yeah, I think you’re on to something. The POP is an unintentional confession and indictment, even if Geer injected his own PI bullshonta. As are victor’s early letters to his fledgling congregation begging for money. As are his letters to “his Corps.” Boy, were those Corps letters a bad look! So revealing. No wonder they’ve been removed from public view.

In today's New York Times Magazine Daniel Dennet is interviewed in the "Talk" column. I thought of this thread topic when Dennet says, "We should recognize...that people are very reluctant to consider that they might be wrong. What if I'm wrong? That's a question I ask myself a lot. These people do not want to ask that question, and I understand why. They're afraid of what they might discover."

Yes, I believed them. Should I have - in hindsight, no. One ramification was critical thinking went out the door because of trusting in them and an implication would be that an extreme narcissist should never be allowed in any position of power. For example: Can a narcissist who commits a crime from believing his own lies be held responsible for his crimes? Can his defense be that he truly believed his ball was stolen and was only trying to get it back when he committed the "said" crimes? In other words, everything he did to get his ball back was justified because his ball, according to him, was absolutely stolen. Also, since a narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition according to the DMS 5, a professional diagnosis could help him in his defense, but being that he has the disorder, he would never allow this to be brought up at trial. Now, what if the narcissist is found not guilty or gets a slap on the wrist because he truly believed in a lie of his own making (or in someone else's lie which he then made his own) and is therefore free to pursue his obsession of becoming rich and powerful so he can seek revenge on people who persecuted and prosecuted him? Worse, what if enough people who believed all along that his ball was stolen (when in reality it wasn't) and/or liked him enough that they helped him to become rich and powerful? Could such an insane story really happen? Narcissists like vp and others are adept at persuading people to trust them whether they believe their lies to be true or not? A narcissist can even be pleased that he can tell a whopper like God spoke audibly to him because of an out-of-season snowstorm/blizzard or another one can say he could shoot someone and, in both cases, believe they will not lose followers. How sure are they not only of themselves but in people's need or desire to believe in someone who will show them "the" way. My point is that an extreme narcissist can believe that he knows that he knows he is speaking truth when in reality he is not, and I know now how big a problem this becomes when others believe and support him. Does a Narcissist Believe His or Her Own Lies? | Psychology Today