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Just popped in here and saw this thread. Waydale was the beginning of the Exodus from my offshoot. It did so much for me, and I am thankful it was here. At the offshoot I was attending at the time, I was CONVINCED, that I was a total misfit, totally screwed up, that all these people from the offshoot could SIT and Interpret and Prophecy and they were the true called ones of God in the Sky, and I was just screwed. I longed for fellowship with my Lord Jesus. They told me if I tried to talk to Him it "Could prove to be fatal" I will never forget that. And I was convinced they were right. Waydale showed me that this teensie weensie little offshoot, in Naperville, Il. were the ones who were the misfits. NOT me. Not that I did not have my problems, I did, and still do. But once I was bold enough to venture out to other various churches, YEARS LATER...I learned one thing...There are THOUSANDS of people out there JUST LIKE ME!!! I felt that although a church might not be a right fit for me..they were still normal people looking for answers in their lives! And nobody had to "prove themselves" by "Speaking in tongues" and Prophecy. Their were other concerns that "REAL" churches are aware of. At least the healthy ones. I wish I could go back to these people, and tell them, If God hasn't blessed your "ministry" "bible clique...coffee clique.." in 20 odd years, don't you think there might be something WRONG with your little group? I know God doesn't count numbers as far as His Glory, but My God Man! If your old fellowship hasn't grown in over 20 years, you do NOTHING for the community that's allowing you a break on rental space and taxes, your agenda is your great doctrine, which has not held up in the eyes of the Lord, over and over and over again.... When will you wake up? Thanks for letting me vent.

vpw got it from Bullinger. Genesis 1:2 saying the Earth "was tohu va bohu", and Isaiah 45:18 saying God didn't create the world "tohu" (in vain). So, we have the Earth NOT created tohu, but it being tohu in Genesis 1:2. The conclusion was that something changed things to make the Earth "tohu." Bullinger also noted the limited uses of the word "create" in Genesis 1, and claimed every instance that did not say "create" was not an instance of creation, but something closer to renovation or resupply (my wording.) The NIV has a note on Genesis 1:2 saying that the word "was" is "possibly became." I saw that in college when comparing Bibles. You'll have to give me more information. I have no idea what you mean, other than a reference to Genesis 1. Someone said Lucifer made the first heaven??? News to me. What I heard was that God made heaven and earth (the "first" one of each, although, AFAIK, the current one is the same as any previous one, plus any renovations, so this is literally the same planet, albeit one where things may have changed radically so it is metaphorically new.). The heavens included a hierarchy of spirit beings we usually call angels to make things simple, and the pre-eminent of them was "the bright and morning star", aka Lucifer. He became vain and desired worship and to replace the Almighty, so he engineered a revolt- which, predictably, lost, and the losers were cast from heaven to earth. Probably as an immediate result, the earth "became without form and void." Eventually, the title "bright and morning star" is given to Jesus, who uses it at the closing of the Book of Revelation. Mind you, even in twi it bothered me greatly there's no chapter of Scripture that lays this out in a straightforward manner. There's a few verses in Isaiah, a few verses in Ezekiel, and a few verses in Revelation. That's hardly conclusive. The 3 sections may have nothing to do with each other or the same person, and the Revelation verses may only refer to something in the future and not be fulfilled one way in the past and one way in the future. IF the Bullinger account is correct, then a possible impact of some kind to the earth by the exiled angels might produce results consistent with a meteorite collision. Something would hit the earth, the impact point would throw up ash into the sky, blocking out sunlight. Plants would starve due to lack of sunlight. Plant-eaters would starve due to a lack of plants. Meat-eaters would starve due to a lack of plant-eaters. It's one way to look at Genesis 1:2, and it would coincide with the scientists who believe a meteor collision wiped out the dinosaurs. I once saw a television show simulate the expected results of such a collision and ash-cloud. When the sun was blocked almost completely, I recited Genesis 1:2 to myself-and noted it matched the simulation. If the Bullinger account is not correct, then things were made in a progressive order. Curiously, it's the same order the scientists think things developed in. Right now, I believe the account makes it clear God's the reason we're here.

Hmm. Never saw this thread before. I met a guy at the 1986 ROA in tent city. He was from Philadelphia, PA and he called himself Stretch. He was harmless, but definitely a 'character'. He had a mannerism he used several times during my encounter with him. He'd be talking about something, either a person or the accompanying situation, and he'd stop and say, "C'mere" in a normal tone of voice. He'd come maybe 2 feet away from me. Then he'd say a few more sentences and again say, "C'mere", this time in a whisper, then he'd come almost face to face and give further lowdown info about whatever it was. It was kind of humorous, but, like I said, he was harmless.