WhiteDove

Dignity- Bob Dylan Fat man lookin' in a blade of steel Thin man lookin' at his last meal Hollow man lookin' in a cottonfield For dignity Wise man lookin' in a blade of grass Young man lookin' in the shadows that pass Poor man lookin' through painted glass For dignity Somebody got murdered on New Year's Eve Somebody said dignity was the first to leave I went into the city, went into the town Went into the land of the midnight sun Searchin' high, searchin' low Searchin' everywhere I know Askin' the cops wherever I go Have you seen dignity? Blind man breakin' out of a trance Puts both his hands in the pockets of chance Hopin' to find one circumstance Of dignity I went to the wedding of Mary-lou She said ? don't want nobody see me talkin' to you?BR>Said she could get killed if she told me what she knew About dignity I went down where the vultures feed I would've got deeper, but there wasn't any need Heard the tongues of angels and the tongues of men Wasn't any difference to me Chilly wind sharp as a razor blade House on fire, debts unpaid Gonna stand at the window, gonna ask the maid Have you seen dignity? Drinkin' man listens to the voice he hears In a crowded room full of covered up mirrors Lookin' into the lost forgotten years For dignity Met Prince Phillip at the home of the blues Said he'd give me information if his name wasn't used He wanted money up front, said he was abused By dignity Footprints runnin' cross the silver sand Steps goin' down into tattoo land I met the sons of darkness and the sons of light In the bordertowns of despair Got no place to fade, got no coat I'm on the rollin' river in a jerkin' boat Tryin' to read a note somebody wrote About dignity Sick man lookin' for the doctor's cure Lookin' at his hands for the lines that were And into every masterpiece of literature for dignity Englishman stranded in the blackheart wind Combin' his hair back, his future looks thin Bites the bullet and he looks within For dignity Someone showed me a picture and I just laughed Dignity never been photographed I went into the red, went into the black Into the valley of dry bone dreams So many roads, so much at stake So many dead ends, I'm at the edge of the lake Sometimes I wonder what it's gonna take To find dignity Copyright © 1991 Special Rider Music

Dot This is not about being clever or about me I covered that in my earlier post as I anticipated it may come up I did not think it would be from you. :(--> In relating your thoughts at times people use the word I,it is speaking from your perspective nothing more it does not make you clever or enlightened it's just english. If you will reread my post you will see that I never said that answering a question with a question was a magic bullet nor did I say it would work in all or every situation. I can imagine several situations where it would not have been an option,for those living at a root local for instance. My question was did anyone do this and what were the results. It appears that Just Thinking did she posted: My best guess is that our bc was a twit and feared anyone who could think faster than he could. (That was a lot of people, btw) When he would call for it, I would have questions for him he couldn't answer. He was too embarrassed to keep calling our lc with questions and just "forgot" about us, I suppose. The bc (same twit above) saw it and jumped on her for "living in filth." When I found about it after twig one day, I asked if we could come to his house afterwards to show her an example of how she should keep her place. He freaked! He was scared because I had seen his house. It was actually less organized than hers. :-) Home inspections stopped. That was my point in part it looks as though it did work in her situation also. There are many things that we have no control over in situations like this as someone once said we can't keep from being kicked but we can determine the direction we go in . Obviously we can not determine what the Way will do from a organizational standpoint ie: whether they kick you out of a program or fellowship and such but if we can leave feeling better about ourselves I think that the afterlife goes a little easier. My experiance in speaking with others has been that those who spoke up said what they had to say have adjusted to life after the way a little better than those who did not. Much like leaving a job as opposed to being fired most people feel differently. As I said it was not about placing judgement or worth on either group of people but learning what did and did not work and why. Anyone in the way pretty much knows that politics in the Way pretty much stopped anyone that resembled Ozzie & Harriet from being in a leadership position so no I did not deal with those type people and you know I live 45 min from a root location Emporia and those were the leaders we delt with Campus leaders ,Limb leaders, Corps Leaders hardly Mayberry come on. And fairy tales? I don't know what goes on in the movie world but I think it is hardly reality. What the inner circle believed is irrelevant lots of people think they are untouchable they find out different when they are brought down low. Ask Craig if he feels untouchable about now. Yes I do think SOME of the abuse was /is manageble some is/was not.The scripture does say a soft answer turns away wrath. Just thinking said I think they feared questions they could not answer and people that could think faster than they could. I agree! So if we can learn from that and help those still in to understand and do that maybe a few more,if only one, will leave with their dignity intact. A worthy Pursuit? [This message was edited by WhiteDove on March 16, 2004 at 14:08.]

Well there have been some great points made,I would never have guessed that a group of people could sit through the same bible teachings,classes and training and have such different responces. Question did anyone use that tidbit we were taught in Christian Motivational Techniques? Answer a question with a question. Since many spoke about the fear motivations that were used to keep people in line I'll use it as an example. Leader: YOu are going to die a horrible death. Believer: Chapter and verse please? Leader: You will get cancer if you don't do so and so Believer: Are you saying that you are Believing for bad things to happen to a brother or sister in Christ You are aware that chapter 3 & 4 of PFAL covers negative and positive believing and believing equals receiving one would think you would be praying for me if you thought I was in harms way. Leader: You will be the devils lunch you will be all alone. Believer: Well I'm truely puzzled to hear that I better run check my Bible cause I swear it said said God in Christ in me I wonder how could a grad of PFAL have forgotten about God in Christ in me. How could I be alone? I thought christ was seated at the right hand of God and the Bible says that he ever lives to make intersession for us as our advocate. Has He gone on vacation? IT seemed to work well for me especially in the case of public humiliation the best defence is offence sometimes. LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

MJ an interesting responce but I have to agree with most here I don't know of anyone that has enjoyed this intrusion. Not one! LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

Dot GOOD I'm glad :)--> And you said clearly what I could not thanks. That was my question When the pressure was applied to us how or why were there different responces and what was the reasoning? I know my reasoning and responce but it is limited I wanted to draw on others to increase my understanding in this. I think it will be very valuable in helping others under pressure. Thanks You know I think the world of you .... LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not..... [This message was edited by WhiteDove on March 15, 2004 at 16:46.]

Dot Dot my friend My post was not intented to be about me you should know me better than that. I'm sorry if it appeared that way to you, I can only write from my experiences and am admittedly not the best at doing that. In any case I certainly don't think of myself as particularly wise and any wisdom I do have surely is by the grace of God or through His words the Bible. Yes I would have to say I was fortunate to have worked with some pretty good people through the years but not all of the leaders were as pleasant to work with as EX-10 and her hubby were. WE had our share of Jr gestapo also. I too believed that a change would happen, but I also knew that it would not happen by supporting more error,hurt,wrong teaching and so on. It was clear to me that the only hope for genuine change to happen was to turn our thoughts and hearts toward God and His word and some sort of biblical practice. It was also clear that the leadership from The Way International had not, and were not, fulfilling their responsibilities before God. They had admitted it publicly and in letters and it remains documented to this day. There was little question by them or anybody there that the ministry was not really "moving the word" at best they were covering their mistakes and asses. I agree I was not committed to insanity but I was committed to the Way and would have liked to see a change, at least at that point. That said our greater committment I thought should have been and remains now to God. I have no interest in speaking highly of me nor unhighly of anyone else. I only seek to understand why the things that happened Did!! First for my own understanding and second as we are reminded by our fellow poster here "The Lessons repeat until they are learned" My hope in understanding is that these lessons will not be repeated. LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

Goey thanks for your response I moved the question over to the Catcup Said thread so as not to derail this one, LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

Catcup as I said in the other thread my question in understanding was not in believing that these kinds of things were requested or that they went on I just wonder why any one would give them that kind of information? Goey posted about the MOG thing and while it did take a upward swing on the doctrine level in the 90s it was always present in the way like in the teachings on the higher powers and others. There were people that while I was in the way I respected and trusted some I still would, but we also learned about lock boxes in the way. I would not have shared or done things that I knew to be wrong in doing. I understand the risks in doing so as Goey outlined also, but none of those things( and they happened to me with the exception of public humiliation) would have been more important than doing what was biblically right. I remember in Kansas there was a big interest in where everyone stood regarding the way and leadership. Maybe because of the statement that Dr. Wierwille made years ago (as kansas goes so the ministry goes) or maybe because J*hnny T*wns*nd had been here before his ousting. Anyway the Corps here were asked to spy on each other and report back info. It was wrong and so the answer was simple - Can't do it thanks anyway! Sure there was risk and most did not like the outcome but no personal uncomfort is worth doing what you know to be wrong. I figured if I was getting ousted anyway I would want to go out with dignity and before God knowing that I had at least tried to do the right things. So herein lies my quandary when I hear someone say "I knew it was wrong but I had to do it"or in this case give information that they should never have. I have trouble in understanding why that happened. LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

Catcup you are right about the beds in the suite I stayed in those a few nights with my wife but it was not a problem for us. About the privacy isssue I left long before that, But I still have trouble understanding why anyone would feel the need to give anyone that kind of information. Why did people not just tell them it was none of their business? LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

Miss Vickles- But your beauty and kindness will never go out of fashion.... LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

Krysilis- Love from Kansas LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

I just wonder if winning the war is so important that we can afford to not be concerned that our brothers and sisters may be a casuality of the battle? ______________________________________________________________ Don't wanna judge nobody, don't wanna be judged, Don't wanna touch nobody,don't wanna be touched. Don't wanna hurt nobody,don't wanna be hurt Don't wanna treat nobody like they was dirt. Don't wanna burn nobody,don't wanna be burned, Don't wanna learn from nobody, what I gotta unlearn. Don't wanna cheat nobody, don't wanna be cheated, Don't wanna defeat nobody, if they already been defeated. But if you do right to me baby, I'll do right to you too. Ya got to do unto others Like you'd have them, do unto you. (Bob Dylan) LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I heard ten thousand whispering' and nobody listening'..... [This message was edited by WhiteDove on March 06, 2004 at 23:03.]

Miss Vickles did you report your little clown too? I see his face on this thread also. :)--> LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

yeah,yeah,yeah..... LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

HAPPY BIRTHDAY LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

Sister Dove! Step away from the buttons... Don't Touch. LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

Hey Rocky you might wanna check the Politics Forum your thread is there. Now about that finders fee.... :)--> LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

WHERE IS KIT SOBER WHEN YA NEED HER? AT WRITING THESE POEMS HELL I'LL NEVER BEAT HER CAUSE HALLMARK I'M NOT BUT LEST YOUR DAY BE FORGOT SOME WORDS I'LL TRY TO ALLOT ALL YOUR DOGS WERE NO HELP YO, ALL THEY DID IS YELP FIGHT AND GET IN A FREY BUT DOT YOUR MY FRIEND SO I WANT TO EXTEND BEST WISHES TO YOU ON YOUR DAY. LOVE RAPDOVE LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not..... [This message was edited by WhiteDove on February 24, 2004 at 12:48.]

Don't have a favorite childrens book but excathedra I loved your post you have the best mom what a special thing to do. PS Oh and I love you too Ex.... LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Confused!!! No!Wait Ah... Maybe I'm Not.....

LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All. I'm Not A Complete Idiot Some Parts Are Missing

LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... I'm Not A Complete Idiot Some Parts Are Missing

Happy Birthday Wacky Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... I'm Not A Complete Idiot Some Parts Are Missing

welcome Well Captain was wondering when you were going to show up here, Cool Handle now we don't have to call you Mr. Cool Waters Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All LOVE FROM THE DOVE.... I'm Not A Complete Idiot Some Parts Are Missing