Ham

Oldies, you may be talking to Mo, but how would I explain it.. hmm. If this is the justification for abuse, I would rather throw it away. People are more important than words on a page, especially if we do not understand them correctly, or if they simply don't reflect reality. "see? It's da WORD of GAWD, in black and white.." I've seen people counselled to stay in abusive marriages based upon this black and white definition of marriage. if these really are Paul's words, they don't ring true, at least to me. I think it is far too much power for an individual, to exercise over another. If a person lets go of the concept that it is a perfect word, accurate from Genesis to Revelation.. the problem seems to solve itself.. on the other hand, what about the historical context? The husband WAS the head of the wife in that culture. He OWNED her.. Perhaps it is a little bit of sarcasm. "yeah, you're head, like Christ is head".. Luke 10:44- "he who is chiefest among you, let him be servant of ALL". He didn't exactly boss his way, or pull the strings of his position to become savior. maybe they couldn't change culture. but they could love as the head.. I'm not sure which, or either I believe at this point. If the true interpretation justifies "putting the little woman in her place" by bullying, endlessly quoting and harping on, even with scripture, regarding her as more spiritually suceptible to devils merely because she is female, I would throw it away. Somebody would have to convince me on a practical level otherwise.

hmm. Last person I did this with lost an ear, but don't worry, hold perfectly still. *ham wields rusty sword* "Out There, I knight thee co-ruler of the relm, to smite with chuckles and laughs, as oftenth as thou wishedeth, as long as you both shall live. Say, "I do"." *thud*

Honest to God.. they may not force the women to wear berkas and veils, but these sonsabitches still regard them as chattel.. even justify it with the bible. I wonder how more primitive we can be.

I saw them sit there and just take it.. merely because they had nowhere else to go. it was one of those "surreal" moments in der vey. One guy accused his wife of conversing with devils, simply because I asked HER to pray for me, and not HIM.. bastards just as soon would have given the wife a lobotomy if they could have..

The two or three "men" that I personally knew, that vic directly trained in early corps, more than reflected this. They really thought that a "loose" woman (not morals, but in thought and deed) was practically an invitation to possession, to be ruled over with a rod of iron. I saw a group of women punished in public because one or two offered REASONABLE, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Talk about free will, consent and participation all you want.. these women did not sign on for that kind of abuse. It wasn't part of the "agreement". Mostly, the "agreements" with anybody in der vey, that I knew of, were that all agreements were off. Subject to the wind as it blows, or to whatever the particular color of "truth" was in stock that particular month.

I've seen people narcotized by sufficient brow beating with a bible.. sadly, der vey is not unique in this.

That may be true.. but. is an unwarranted conclusion. I think some tolerated it, put up with it, endured it, perhaps thought there wasn't anything better .. but really believed it? Can't simply say that for everybody. Some were coerced.

And if I may but add: Real men don't look like this.

See? Nothing to be afraid of. Big words come easy..

Not for the faint of heart: What happened when twi ran out of sand..

Did you look at his churches website? Certainly more than chasing twi to the ends of the earth..I saw a few nice honest articles.. "I'm dating a wayfer, what do I do.." http://www.abouttheway.org/ This sounds pretty accurate, compared to what I personally witnessed. Pretty calm wording.. doesn't sound like he's frothing at the mouth or anything.. People in twi DO think differently than "normal" people. I should know.. I was in it, and I'm hardly "normal" But I think he makes a valid point. I think he's done a pretty good job climbing inside the shoes of someone in the organization. I would agree based on my first hand experience, and that of others. Nothing "reactionary" here.. not that I detect. Just that, you wanna marry a wayfer, you're GOING to go to "church", and in twi's case, as a church, it "sucks". The real sad thing, is I remember the vey's habit of thought too.. I'd be terrified to even read something like this.

I don't know if you read that right T-bone. It's colon ization. I was merely suggesting that they were putting their head somewhere else.

I don't know about ostrichization. I thought they've been practicing colonization, for years. I know, I'm bad..

I think it's like in the old days, when alchemists wanted to learn to secret to turn lead and other "junk metal" into gold.. as far as acquiring wealth is concerned, it would be self-defeating.

I dunno.. I think it is really easy to attribute success to some kind of mystical power source, when one is wallowing in the land of oportunity, so to speak. The reality of it is that everybody in the world can't have everything or anything that they want. Let's all just go to the moon. It sounds like the promise of pfal however. Whatever your greedy little heart wants, we've got a way for you to get it. I think if a person were to invoke this kind of "power", there are a few payments to be made. I wouldn't ask for something I couldn't afford.. As far as my personal life is concerned, I really don't want or need any kind of shortcut. I choose to build one brick at a time.. :)

Or go home at night to "Miss Michigan"..

One question.. maybe it is too personal. If so, answer to yourself. I am not expecting an answer. But.. are you or have you ever been married? If so, was this how you managed the relationship? "woman, shut the **** up" was how one limb guy in the seventies ran his marriage.. I saw it first hand. And this was one of the guys trained by the vicster. I would rather take the route that would make me out as a coward.. honestly. To quote one of my old limb coordinators before he was labeled "weak and possessed".. "I'd RATHER err on the side of being too loving and gentle". he sure didn't last long in der ministry. His marriage is still intact and loving, the last I knew of him though.

Says a lot about his character. In public, he put Dotsie on a pedestal.. everything was probably ok as long as she stayed there. I've seen how the "men" he directly "trained" treated their wives.

He learned from his "father" quite well..

In a sense.. I feel like some of them "did", some of us "died".. :)

Honestly.. "degrading women".. was done behind my back so to speak. I remember some things.. too damn personal, and involves others.. better not say. All I'll say is, some of us guys had no idea what kind of pressure was put on the women, or wives, to not bring supposed shame or disappointment.. It was another stupid illusion.

Yeah. But the only thing I can't understand, is why.

Interesting.. "PFAL piracy" is the first page on a Google search for "Chris Geer".. then pages upon pages about the pop lunacy. NO webpage.. no information.. maybe he really did move into an abandoned missle silo.. I didn't know they had them in Maine.. gotta be a pretty miserable existence, having to isolate oneself from the world and all..

I liked the one about the morning the squirrel came home after a night on the town..

Where should this go.. don't worry. I can go almost anywhere.. I think these are some of the more "intellectual" appearing quotes of vp.. sounds so slick, "we" or at leat "I" took it for granted that it was absolute truth.. This is almost a direct quote of Bullinger in How to enjoy the Bible. In the class it is practically an exact quote, about having courage to go to the fountain head of truth. I dunno. I've met some fundamental Jewish people who are pretty darn peaceful..