Ham

Yep.. after a while, this meant nothing to "them"..

Somebody from the long, distant past found me, not at Greasespot.. if you put my name on a Google search, you would find me on the second page. I got an email. "are you the Ham I knew.." I gave the person my phone number.. Haven't heard a thing.. I wonder if the person ran the idea by their local leadership... That would be so sad..

I'm still looking for an "answer" here. In a way, I wish you didn't even bring this up.. I have no axe to grind with CFF as such. But really.. Do you indeed have the freedom that you think you have? Unless the Lord Almighty comes down and confirms your assertations in no uncertain terms, but HE hasn't. to me, personally.. I am FORCED to default to the scientific method. first two steps: (and there are more..) 1. make an observation 2. ask a question Do we have the FREEDOM to ask these questions?

Yep..

I saw it on a National Geographic special.

"We guarantee you will be amazed at the RESULTS" Today, unwary people get convinced with loud and confident claims of results. In the old days, they were convinced about who was right by how much latex the witchdoctor could vomit in a projectile manner..

I'd like to know, do you know this PERSONALLY, or did you just hear this in a report, or hear about results based on someone elses claim? I'm not saying it is not true, or impossible.. but I don't follow these claims like a lemming any more.. Next question: do you feel, in the organization, that you have freedom to think something like this, or to even ask an honest question, such as, is this real, or are we being led down another precipice by another charlatan? The logic here: 1. The word reveals the power of God 2. We know the word 3. Therefore we have the power 4. Therefore it MUST be genuine.. I think there are too many assumptions here. I've followed that train of logic before, and it didn't pan out to be what it claimed.. I'm not an unbeliever as such, but too many red flags go up in my mind..

The one in Escondido looks like about the right age..

Hope, I think that's it.. Think of it. Those "ministers" may find it a rather tough time convincing the man on the street that they are "worthy" of their support.. so what to do? Round up a bunch who left der vey, or were tossed out, and get them to circle the wagons around old way dogma. That's all they know how to teach.. the only bible they know, for the most part. Won't work in the real world. I see them come here on occasion.. trying to net some of us up like unsuspecting fish, with a promise of "results" or an offer to return to the days when der vey was young and fresh as a spring chicken.. like JL's little exercise in prose, where he (practically) tearfully exhorts to get tapped into his root.. sheesh. I do have some respect for those who are doing something other than microwaving up some of vics old dogma..

"scratch", a vital ingredient for various baking purposes. Organic scratch is often fertilized with itch.

hmmm. That pic looks like a case of a Botox treatment gone really wrong.. I wonder if der vey paid for the job.. probably the lowest bid.. I'd try to get the money back..

Welcome, newcomer! Thanks for your thoughts. I don't think a PUBLIC apology is such a bad thing.. but I agree with you to the extent that a public apology should not be DEMANDED. That would be similar to a demand for love from another individual. Would such an apology be appropriate? Perhaps. Perhaps- if it was an expression of sincere love.. I think the lack of apology, public OR private, speaks of the egotistical conditions at large on the top of the organization. I think they feel they have no reason to apologize.. "geeze.. what did I do? If you'd just listen to my tapes and read my book, everything would be peachy keen.." Arrogance, to the end..

That is a valid point, but I would add: abuse, stupidity, and lack of common sense in one group does not justify abuse, stupidity, and lack of common sense in another. :)

I think an offshoot is more defined as a group that had a start with a significant number of ex-way people. Otherwords, they didn't work day in and day out to amass their following, didn't start from scratch. I think several of them are like a dysfunctional, ready made family..

Well Roy.. another friend asked me the question, "if you found out that everything that you believed was wrong, what would you do.." I kinda had that happen.. it only took a split second or so. It was kind of like- my ego and individuality were stripped off, for a moment. NO- it was not drug induced. In a sense, I wish it was- If only I could find a drug to duplicate it, I'd be rich, heheh. I saw what was inside of another individual.- and it almost burned my skin off, but it did not actually hurt. I still feel like I have holes burned in me. I went as far to talk to a "shrink" about it.. The thing about it- I now think that we ALL have the same light in us. If we knew what we really were, we'd be sooo dagone egotistical.. probably good most of us don't know it, on a conscious level. But most of us go through life- at least from what I have observed- and I hear "daggone it, I'm too fat, I don't have enough money, I'm too thin, I am nasty- I smoke, I'm too this, I'm too that, I don't have enough of this, I don't have enough of that..." and "they" who hold these thoughts, DON'T HAVE A CLUE. Here we are.. perhaps one of the most beautiful things in all of God's creation.. and we worry: whether our hair is combed just right.. whether we are precisely 115 pounds, or... on and on.. sheesh. OK.. I hope this is not more than you were asking for..

Yeah.. and I think that is about the only hope they've got is DRAMATIC change, and more than just the personal prophecy issue.. I don't think internalizing these issues will fix much. I hope they just didn't pull that little article off, take it back to a smoke filled boardroom somewhere for cleaning and polishing, and in nine months we'll see another reincarnation of the same thing. Their website.. my opinion- it almost looks like they've taken efforts to make it look more "mainstream".. almost like they are sweeping all this under the rug, and HOPING it will all go away..

I dunno.. I'd like to see this prophecy thing dealt with in an honest forum.. just asking too much I guess.. Back it goes to the "boardroom".. sheesh.

Pretty profound, Roy. There is so much more in life between black and white. And a person ususally can't enjoy it without being freed from the constant necesity of being "right".

Sprawled Out, I think even more unpleasant, they think everybody else in the world should agree.. Satori, keep them coming.. :)

looks like they still think Graeser is the pres Wonder how long his mug will be on THAT page.. Looks like pulling the prophecy thingy had more priority.. whoops.. fixed the link..

Here's an "appendix" they should have included in their "work" Prophecy for Dummies They did manage to incorporate some of this into their latest efforts though.. I wonder if they cited their source

An exerpt of their own review of the prophecy book in the catalog- If they can't use their little "zero to prophecy in five easy steps" book to filter out spiders in the nose and worse, either they can't read, or something is wrong with their book. Whole appendix on false prophets, and false prophecies.. Makes me think that the darkness hasn't gone away, it's just moved back into the inner sanctum..

I think they owe their "constituency" an apology, at the very least.The only reason I care is that I have ties with CES's parent organization, and observe CES taking the same journey of abuse and manipulation. For a person to think using "prophecy" to break up a marrriage to be not abusive and evil, well.. I don't know quite what to say. Other than that- they are small potatos in the larger scheme of things. I'm not looking for an apology for me, personally. I agree, but I would add: .. it took ALMOST the same kind of pressure to get them to take that down, as it took to get der vey to dump martindale. They would have followed him to the grave if it weren't for the lawyers.. JL defended PP here in his llittle letter.. all the way to the end

"what da bible says about personal prophecy" or something like that.. It was right on the front page there..

Interesting. The article is plain GONE. It's not even archived. http://www.truthortradition.com/ what is more intriguing.. an article about "love" takes it's place.. and old, old JL teaching.. I'm trying to figure out the message here.. what is it? "Well, we dropped the prophecy thingy. Will you leave us alone now?" Might be the closest thing to an apology.. but my friend, who was never with the vey or CES looked at it.. says something to the effect, looks like trying to still control people by defining what love is.. what does everybody else think?