Ham

Maybe an army of those REAL BIG firetrucks with six inch fire hoses could hose out all the crap in an eon or so.. heh heh.

How many "eons" does it take to straighten the stinking place out? Eight? Ten?

Hello Kathy.. yep- I'm thankful for what good I got out of it too. Still, it seems we paid, and kept paying- still paying- I think I know how a cat feels, still coughing up furballs once in a while, heh heh. Just when I think it's all over, here comes another one.. blecch. I think Mike is doing us- or me- more of a service than he realizes. Nowhere else have I been able to cough up this crap and really get a handle on it. Dislike his opinion as much as some do, it still has a beneficial effect. Really convinces me that I'd never go back to some of that crap- never- no matter what the promises, no matter what the guarantees.

And it doesn't taste sweet, either. Ptooie.

That's why they'd never have me back, now. One stupid statement like "if you are really mature, you should know that you owe us your life" and I'd be on them like there's no tomorrow. Even in a church or other place. I wouldn't care if it was "out of order". No friggin way. Normally, I'm a nice guy, try to get along with people- but try this stuff- especially on my kids, and they're gonna see a side of me they wished they never had. I'm still spitting out the crap I swallowed all those years.. ptooie.

That's all well and good, but- I feel a couple challenges are left unanswered. I still believe: 1. I do not owe my very life to ANY ministry that "taught me the word". I consider the implication dishonorable, self-serving and downright DEVILISH. period. They do not "own" me, in any way, shape or form. My Bible says that the earth is THE LORD'S, and the people therein. Yet this was a key theme in the intermediate class- even printed in the materials. Remember the eighties? Loy circulating his little "loyalty oath"? Same dadburned thing. We owe those bunch of numbnuts NOTHING. Except to love perhaps- and believe me, we've paid- again and again. Now they accept no payment. You're too old. Don't need you anymore- they have a younger crowd they're trying to whip into shape to kiss their rears in ways you'd never understand. But it's the same scam, "well, we've given you EVERYTHING (ha!). Now you owe us, big time". Same devilish crap- and it did not start with them, it started in PFAL. 2. Nobody, just nobody can by their own believing or otherwise, turn themselves into a prophet. The whole idea that you can "believe" to perform the function of a prophet without God Almighty's stamp of approval is futile, at the best. Same for any other ministry- includes gifts of healings, helps, governments, etc. Either you have it, or you don't. If you think you can believe to get it, go ahead and try. I know better. 3. Show me the results. Really. Now, or then. If it is what it claims to be, you should get the results that it claims. The results I saw in the seventies- the good old days- were few and far between. Not too mention more often fabricated than not. Among the greatly touted "results" I heard in the seventies: person "miraculously" had money in their checking account. They removed said money to pay for class. Low and behold, the checks out on the account came in the next few days- nothing more abundant than having a half a dozen angry merchants at your door, must have just been the debil, I guess.. Sure, some good things happened, but not to the level that it glorified the greatness of PFAL. Heck, I spoke in tongues and saw a miracle or two LONG before I took any class.

Well, here is at least one more thought.. Lack of results? Loy came up with a nice little explanation- that the spirit of God did not come ENERGIZED, like in the old testament. That seems to fix some of the difficulties.. Oh well, more retemorizing, more S.I.T.ing eighteen hours a day, more "researching" of ministry materials, more stupid dumb blind obedience, more giving- now over fifteen percent, etc. etc. etc. More, more more. I think most folks found that even that did not work, either. Good grief- either its energized, or its not. Either you've got the power, or you don't. You telling me that "the fullness of the spirit" needs YOUR help "getting it started"? Maybe you just need to get out and push a little harder. Like it or not, some of the folk in history that had the MOST to contribute to the Christian Church NEVER spoke in tongues, not once.

Holy cow- makes me think God doesn't have enough ministries to pass around, so he has to put them out on loan.. don't return them on time- the overdue fines are horrific..

Another thought about the "being able to believe to rise up to do the function of a Prophet"- It's ludicrous. What's God gonna do? Make you a "prophet of the day"? Makes no sense to me. "Here you go kid, you mastered da class right, I'll let you be a prophet for just a little while, then I'll yank it back when the "real deal" comes along". What happened to the gifts and calling of God being without repentance? This teaching simply allowed whoever wished to scream loud enough, or wanted to be confrontational enough, no matter how corrupt or counterfiet the individual was, to somehow be allowed the priviledge of doing "da work of the Lord". No ministries of miracles and healing where you live? If PFAL is right, you can rise up and do it. Lets see it happen. Let's see YOU do it. Need to walk on water? Let's see YOU do it first. I'm not trying to be "mean"- I really care. At first I thought this stuff was laughable- now I realize that you REALLY believe it. Practically, doctrinally, and logically, PFAL has failed. Some of us were "lucky" enough to sort some good out of it. In this matter I will not share details, but some of the errors have cost me, big time.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but- considering the size of this thing, most states would require some kind of turning indicator if you just happen to be walking down the street..

The PFAL thing got me thinking of this. I think a lot of you guys "had it" so to speak, and got something out of it. So many other Peter and Paul wannabes never got it, never had it to begin with. To bad they tossed out all of the Peter and Paul types.

"Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual." Sounds all too familiar. Kind of like, "now, you gotta be nice. Forget about the rape, the stealing, the etc. , etc. and give the poor guy another chance". There may be a different extreme- constantly reminding folks of all the little piddly mistakes, trying to put someone down in order to climb over them, etc. That's kind of devilish. But on the other hand.. I would be an unfaithful watchman to allow somebody to unknowingly walk blindly into "the lions den" without warning. Nothing has changed there, but only for the worse since I left. Things like: leadership telling their flock, or at least some, the most appropriate thing would be to take their kid out in the wilderness where no one would hear and beat the he** out of him. Telling the wife to divorce her husband because he was "possessed" (i.e., did not agree fully with the ministry doctrine). Talk about words that cut, words that kill. Words that stir up strife. Between husband and wife, even whole families. Best friends. Those kind of words must be marked and remembered, and repeated. "Mad dog is loose, watch out". Maybe you haven't seen it. It took Martindale quite a few years to get that kind of degredation to be readily apparent in my area. Before, they only thought these kind of suggestions. Shortly before I left, these were often COMMANDMENTS. I heard enough to straighten out my hair. Shortcomings are one thing- I have enough to fill a dumpster. Downright pure sin and evil on the other hand- deserves a little scrutiny.

Well.. good idea. Only thing, it'd either scare the kid to death or give it some real unreasonable expectations in life..

Well, I thought that it's March, almost April, almost spring, and time for twue wove.

Wooo hooo, heh heh.

Another thought- "though you may not have the MINISTRY of a prophet, you can believe to carry out the FUNCTION of a prophet" Pure, absolute, balderdash. Nothing less. Only God almighty can energize the ministry or function of a prophet. But somehow, with the magic of believing or some such nonsense, and da accuracy of PFAL you yourself can somehow pull it off. All I can say is, go ahead, try it. Pretend you've "got it". I know at least one guy that walked in the funeral parlor and tried. The dang corpse just wouldn't cooperate properly, you know.. Still not convinced? Go ahead- try it. I think I'll wait to see what it does to you before I try it. No results? I wouldn't blame God.

Raf, I actually take that as a compliment.. at least finally there is one horde I can "belong" to, heh heh.. As to P.F.A.L.- what kind of "results" did I see from it? What I observed: not always- but normally- folks were given the apparent "magic keys" to spiritual success. Fine and wonderful- what did that produce? An ARMY of committed-to-the-accuracy-of-the-word zealots (myself included, at times) who were expertly groomed and taught how to PRETEND they had revelation. Revelation about everything. Why your job stunk. Why you were sick. Why your pet died. Why you should go in the corps, that you should go WOW, or increase the amount you were giving. Forget that they were a young, snot nose, wet behind the ears but somehow barely stayed awake during parts of the advanced class. But they were GRADS! And if you were a grad, you had the stamp of approval. Of course things got much, much worse. Corpse telling people to beat the he** out of their kid. Telling them that their spouse was possessed. Telling them... on and on. Pretending they had the gift of healing and telling the victim to throw away their medicine. Yeah, I know doc vic's objection to this- "I'd make sure I really had revelation"- well, that's what they thought. Oh well, mistakes can be buried. And it HAS happened. Pretending to have a ministry. Yes, pretending- look at old Loy. Never had one. If he did, he threw it away long ago, in the beginning. There are exceptions, but that is the legacy of PFAL. I think the demand of proof of claims not to be at all vulgar or profane, especially in light of the junk most of us have gone through. If they hold all the cards, they should joyfully play them. Prophets are CALLED, not man or self-MADE. Never. Quit stinkin pretending you're something you're not. PFAL is not God. You cannot believe hard enough to be made a prophet, or apostle, or etc.. no amount of work, no amount of effort- all you'll get is a hernia, or embarassed or worse. You can't study hard enough either. Won't happen. Sit back, relax, say, "It's OK, I'm not a prophet, I'm not a MOG.. things will be OK anyway, the sun will still rise tomorrow". Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ really oughta be enough. What more could you want?

Hope it is going OK.. hey, just keep up the good work. I'll keep all of those rascals in doctrinal busy for you, heh heh.

Oh yeah.. sure remember that! I remember folks "miraculously" finding extra cash in their checking accounts. They wrote out some for cash, paid for the class, and low and behold, several checks happened to be just a little late coming in. Must've been da adversary, stealing that "increase" out of their bank accounts.. Happened more than once, at least that I witnessed. But they got da class! I wonder just what we were thinking..

Cripe- whether or not you get results from it does not affect my spirituality. Personally, I don't need to see the dead walk to be convinced that there is a God, or that we've been redeemed by His son, for that matter. But really, what is all of this "mastering of da class" doing for you? Just some nebulous, "well, I'm just so blessed today.." "I can finally see, I am blessed" or is it really tangible? Do you see real miracles, aside the conventional one when you happen to be able to pull up in your favorite parking spot? You may not read my intent- I am not mad, angry, etc.- just would like to know. What good has it, or is it doing? What did PFAL do for me? I learned more in twig- at least more that was really useful. How to pray, what kind of things God might have a voice in about what to pray for- a few other things. With that class, I found myself more and more trying to do the Lord's job. Tried figuring out every detail before taking a single step. Checking every stinking little key trying to determine if it was really the Lord or not. "God expects you to know everything you can know by your five senses". Revelation turned into sense-knowledge analysis. Just doing more and more of God's job. Trying to figure out if it was Word of Knowledge, or Word of Wisdom- or was it something else.. forever analyzing it to death. Ever wonder why he put all that stuff about the manifestations in only three (technically speaking at least) chapters in the bible, and short ones at that? Maybe it's not such the big deal it's cracked up to be. Maybe it's just not as hard as you think. Heck, Samuel's "advanced class" lasted only about a verse and a half. I find it interesting that the vast majority of the instructions in Corinthians regards PROPHECY- i.e., telling people what to do. Boiled down from all of the exhortation/comfort/forthtelling/foretelling definitions, that really is what it comes down to. What about all of those keys- sixteen plus. "God expects you to know what you can know by your five senses" then the heavy revy can kick in, supposedly. Ever think that your sense knowledge reliance and analysis just might be WRONG? Sure was for me, more than once. What in the world would God expect you to know THAT for? My God is a heck of a lot bigger, and far more generous. Labeling revelation given about something you already "know" being phenomenal is ridiculous. What you "know" is usually wrong. Now, through the "help" of your "overseer", you can be a prevailing, schedule the life of the devil out of your daily routine believer. That would have driven me nuts, even then. More work, work work work. No more, at least for me.

A long time ago, I promised myself I'd never get involved in one of the nice civilized brawls.. what hoppened? - heh heh. I think this one must of hit me just right..

HCW- I had similar experiences when I was a WOW. Now, I am just a scruffy looking rascal, but then, well , maybe some of the charisma rubbed off on me. Wouldn't know it now- at least two occasions I turned them down. Looking back, life probably would a heck of a lot worse if I didn't.

There is a big difference between vulgar and honest. Where are the results? If it (PFAL) is what it claims to be, the lack therof speaks volumes. Yes, I pray- and read the bible- and I do get results. Tangible, real, results. Few specific thanks to PFAL- don't owe my whole life to some blood sucking organization. Results, results- first they are guaranteed, and when you sign on the line, magically, they dissappear. "Experiences are not normative, it is the word of God that is truth- etc. etc." I have a right to call anybody on this. If it is so great, show me what it is doing for your life, other that turning you into a bigot or religious zealot. If that's all it does, you won't get me in it- you can have it. Put up or shut up. Either there are results, or there are not.

No wonder they don't want us "old geezers" around anymore. One statement like that out of them, and at least twenty of us would jump them like there's no tomorrow, heh heh.

All this, and his little Martindale too.