Ham

Dunno. Sounds to me like somebody trying to reach "nirvana" through questionable means- get all the little detail lined up JUST right and bingo- everything changes from hell to paradise. Too hard for me.. cripe, I'm not that smart.

Thanks for the "balance" socks.. myself, I met my share of good and bad corps. Seems they were either really really good- wanted to do God's best- those who were bad, well.. I guess you can find good and bad anywhere. I still think either they "had it" or they didn't. If they didn't, all the classes, all the training in the world, all the sacrifice, did not get it. Look at Loy- can't make a silk MOG out of a, well, you know.. Maybe he "had it" at one time, maybe not- maybe he just threw it away. I don't paint everything I learned or experienced from that place with the color of evil. Just some of it. And I still find myself coughing it up. Sure, Vic taught us the word- sure he cared at times. But many times it was laced with strichnine- "ya oughta be mature enough to know you owe us your life" cause you just can't get this anywhere else- is a real prime candidate to be considered poison, not "rightly divided truth". But that poison was enough to nulify a lot of the good for a lot of folks. Still, a lot of us managed to take the good with us. Burned my hand on that stove once- just not again. Too busy burning my hand on other stoves now, heh heh. Any more, even the seemingly innocent idea of a mission statement for an organization really gets my attention. Any kind of "exclusivism" or country club persona, and I'm ready to scream. Just won't put up with it anymore. "How are we different" a lot of times really comes down to "what do we have to sell". That's OK- but lets just be honest about it. No stupid claims- no unreasonable promises or expectations. "No, our magic pill won't make you an apostle, or a prophet- you just may be a regular Joe the rest of your life, and that's OK." The offshoots seem to have taken this position. "Here, we have some material that may be of help". I respect that- a heck of a lot more than the promise-you-the-moon stance of how PFAL was promoted- even by the teacher himself. "This class can answer 85 to 90 percent of any questions you have about the bible"- well, It delivered for me- I really did not have many questions- knew practically nothing about the Bible to begin with. So yes- it did. Others though- didn't answer anywhere NEAR eighty five percent. Unreasonable claim. Enables you to separate truth from error- questionable. Took me decades to get ....ed off about the concept of owing my life to some blood sucking cult. Took me at least three years to figure out that the guy who was screaming the loudest was not necessarily right. Spiritually, I was about as sharp as a brick. But I was the best tongues or interpreter guy this side of the mississippi, heh heh. Another unreasonable claim. Promotes harmony in the home- gads, I won't even go into this one. As of yet, I still would like to hear from some specific parties- besides Galen, Kathy and others who got something out of it. God forbid that I should berate them. And I don't read any "promise you the moon" results there. Sure, it helped- some folk got something tangible out of it- but it's hardly a fitting replacement for the Almighty. Mike, what has it done for you, really? It's a fair question. What has the constant study, the constant "mastering"- the constant "obedience" to da masters last command- what has it done for you? Or what has it done TO you? More nebulous "well, I'm just blessed now"- "I really undestand now"- understand what? "Well, I understand the administrations"- here are dozens of folks that just plain could never forget that simple teaching. Where's the beef? Other folks kindly piped up and said what they got out of it. Even I admit I got some profit out of it. Really- I would really like to know- what is it doing for you?

But, it's your thread- what do you think? At least for me, just remembering that thing about "owing my life to the ministry" really got me going. If all of PFAL is God-breathed, then logically, this must be true also. I don't buy it- at least now. And that was part of the indoctrination of PFAL. It seems we got a lot of real junk along with the word of God- a lot of crap. And some people are unwilling to dare to call it what it was- crap. I don't see how I bought into that stuff for a minute. You may have had the priviledge of missing the "even worse"- those who could scream the loudest and foulest were revered as those that could do the job, and take on the adversary- they magically had the spiritual inside on everything in your life because they underwent some kind of training or class.. I thankfully only witnessed that only a couple of times. What I witnessed- people PRESUMED to be some kind of prophet, or apostle- may have not claimed it, but sure acted like it. And their "prophecies" proved to be as genuine as a three dollar bill. Funny, lots of them are still involved, busy running whole regions. In a lot of ways, I think a lot of what I learned in PFAL was OK- just don't think it's worthy of being given Godhood.. some do. I think that's kind of nuts. some make it hard to separate the good and junk without hurting somebody's feelings- hope I didn't hurt you.

And further- I meant no harm to you, Galen. From what I read of your posts, you have taken what good you got from the ministry and are seeing some results. Same here. I just don't buy all of it, anymore. You were unfortunate enough to witness me spitting out some real junk. Sorry..

Galen, tough call sometimes. I think the thing was really taken to extremes. Sure, you and I at times could do some real good things, speak things perhaps that a prophet MIGHT- but somehow, the idea that you can mix so many of hours of PFAL in a persons brain and equal the "office of a prophet' is just a little repugnant to me. People spouted off some stuff that they should have known far better. Either people 'had it" or they didn't. In your case, perhaps you "had it". I don't disqualify at least the possibility. But far and wide, what I observed- otherwise well meaning people- if they didn't "have it" were convinced that they did. They figured that with enough religous training, they somehow could do the work of a prophet- on command. That's what I observed. They instantly become Word of Knowledge experts- on everything- why you oughta do this, why you oughta do that. Why you should quit your job. Why you shoud do .. fill in the blan,. This was my direct observation. God forbid that I would lay to your charge of being some kind of counterfiet.

Maybe an army of those REAL BIG firetrucks with six inch fire hoses could hose out all the crap in an eon or so.. heh heh.

How many "eons" does it take to straighten the stinking place out? Eight? Ten?

Hello Kathy.. yep- I'm thankful for what good I got out of it too. Still, it seems we paid, and kept paying- still paying- I think I know how a cat feels, still coughing up furballs once in a while, heh heh. Just when I think it's all over, here comes another one.. blecch. I think Mike is doing us- or me- more of a service than he realizes. Nowhere else have I been able to cough up this crap and really get a handle on it. Dislike his opinion as much as some do, it still has a beneficial effect. Really convinces me that I'd never go back to some of that crap- never- no matter what the promises, no matter what the guarantees.

And it doesn't taste sweet, either. Ptooie.

That's why they'd never have me back, now. One stupid statement like "if you are really mature, you should know that you owe us your life" and I'd be on them like there's no tomorrow. Even in a church or other place. I wouldn't care if it was "out of order". No friggin way. Normally, I'm a nice guy, try to get along with people- but try this stuff- especially on my kids, and they're gonna see a side of me they wished they never had. I'm still spitting out the crap I swallowed all those years.. ptooie.

That's all well and good, but- I feel a couple challenges are left unanswered. I still believe: 1. I do not owe my very life to ANY ministry that "taught me the word". I consider the implication dishonorable, self-serving and downright DEVILISH. period. They do not "own" me, in any way, shape or form. My Bible says that the earth is THE LORD'S, and the people therein. Yet this was a key theme in the intermediate class- even printed in the materials. Remember the eighties? Loy circulating his little "loyalty oath"? Same dadburned thing. We owe those bunch of numbnuts NOTHING. Except to love perhaps- and believe me, we've paid- again and again. Now they accept no payment. You're too old. Don't need you anymore- they have a younger crowd they're trying to whip into shape to kiss their rears in ways you'd never understand. But it's the same scam, "well, we've given you EVERYTHING (ha!). Now you owe us, big time". Same devilish crap- and it did not start with them, it started in PFAL. 2. Nobody, just nobody can by their own believing or otherwise, turn themselves into a prophet. The whole idea that you can "believe" to perform the function of a prophet without God Almighty's stamp of approval is futile, at the best. Same for any other ministry- includes gifts of healings, helps, governments, etc. Either you have it, or you don't. If you think you can believe to get it, go ahead and try. I know better. 3. Show me the results. Really. Now, or then. If it is what it claims to be, you should get the results that it claims. The results I saw in the seventies- the good old days- were few and far between. Not too mention more often fabricated than not. Among the greatly touted "results" I heard in the seventies: person "miraculously" had money in their checking account. They removed said money to pay for class. Low and behold, the checks out on the account came in the next few days- nothing more abundant than having a half a dozen angry merchants at your door, must have just been the debil, I guess.. Sure, some good things happened, but not to the level that it glorified the greatness of PFAL. Heck, I spoke in tongues and saw a miracle or two LONG before I took any class.

Well, here is at least one more thought.. Lack of results? Loy came up with a nice little explanation- that the spirit of God did not come ENERGIZED, like in the old testament. That seems to fix some of the difficulties.. Oh well, more retemorizing, more S.I.T.ing eighteen hours a day, more "researching" of ministry materials, more stupid dumb blind obedience, more giving- now over fifteen percent, etc. etc. etc. More, more more. I think most folks found that even that did not work, either. Good grief- either its energized, or its not. Either you've got the power, or you don't. You telling me that "the fullness of the spirit" needs YOUR help "getting it started"? Maybe you just need to get out and push a little harder. Like it or not, some of the folk in history that had the MOST to contribute to the Christian Church NEVER spoke in tongues, not once.

Holy cow- makes me think God doesn't have enough ministries to pass around, so he has to put them out on loan.. don't return them on time- the overdue fines are horrific..

Another thought about the "being able to believe to rise up to do the function of a Prophet"- It's ludicrous. What's God gonna do? Make you a "prophet of the day"? Makes no sense to me. "Here you go kid, you mastered da class right, I'll let you be a prophet for just a little while, then I'll yank it back when the "real deal" comes along". What happened to the gifts and calling of God being without repentance? This teaching simply allowed whoever wished to scream loud enough, or wanted to be confrontational enough, no matter how corrupt or counterfiet the individual was, to somehow be allowed the priviledge of doing "da work of the Lord". No ministries of miracles and healing where you live? If PFAL is right, you can rise up and do it. Lets see it happen. Let's see YOU do it. Need to walk on water? Let's see YOU do it first. I'm not trying to be "mean"- I really care. At first I thought this stuff was laughable- now I realize that you REALLY believe it. Practically, doctrinally, and logically, PFAL has failed. Some of us were "lucky" enough to sort some good out of it. In this matter I will not share details, but some of the errors have cost me, big time.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but- considering the size of this thing, most states would require some kind of turning indicator if you just happen to be walking down the street..

The PFAL thing got me thinking of this. I think a lot of you guys "had it" so to speak, and got something out of it. So many other Peter and Paul wannabes never got it, never had it to begin with. To bad they tossed out all of the Peter and Paul types.

"Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual." Sounds all too familiar. Kind of like, "now, you gotta be nice. Forget about the rape, the stealing, the etc. , etc. and give the poor guy another chance". There may be a different extreme- constantly reminding folks of all the little piddly mistakes, trying to put someone down in order to climb over them, etc. That's kind of devilish. But on the other hand.. I would be an unfaithful watchman to allow somebody to unknowingly walk blindly into "the lions den" without warning. Nothing has changed there, but only for the worse since I left. Things like: leadership telling their flock, or at least some, the most appropriate thing would be to take their kid out in the wilderness where no one would hear and beat the he** out of him. Telling the wife to divorce her husband because he was "possessed" (i.e., did not agree fully with the ministry doctrine). Talk about words that cut, words that kill. Words that stir up strife. Between husband and wife, even whole families. Best friends. Those kind of words must be marked and remembered, and repeated. "Mad dog is loose, watch out". Maybe you haven't seen it. It took Martindale quite a few years to get that kind of degredation to be readily apparent in my area. Before, they only thought these kind of suggestions. Shortly before I left, these were often COMMANDMENTS. I heard enough to straighten out my hair. Shortcomings are one thing- I have enough to fill a dumpster. Downright pure sin and evil on the other hand- deserves a little scrutiny.

Well.. good idea. Only thing, it'd either scare the kid to death or give it some real unreasonable expectations in life..

Well, I thought that it's March, almost April, almost spring, and time for twue wove.

Wooo hooo, heh heh.

Another thought- "though you may not have the MINISTRY of a prophet, you can believe to carry out the FUNCTION of a prophet" Pure, absolute, balderdash. Nothing less. Only God almighty can energize the ministry or function of a prophet. But somehow, with the magic of believing or some such nonsense, and da accuracy of PFAL you yourself can somehow pull it off. All I can say is, go ahead, try it. Pretend you've "got it". I know at least one guy that walked in the funeral parlor and tried. The dang corpse just wouldn't cooperate properly, you know.. Still not convinced? Go ahead- try it. I think I'll wait to see what it does to you before I try it. No results? I wouldn't blame God.

Raf, I actually take that as a compliment.. at least finally there is one horde I can "belong" to, heh heh.. As to P.F.A.L.- what kind of "results" did I see from it? What I observed: not always- but normally- folks were given the apparent "magic keys" to spiritual success. Fine and wonderful- what did that produce? An ARMY of committed-to-the-accuracy-of-the-word zealots (myself included, at times) who were expertly groomed and taught how to PRETEND they had revelation. Revelation about everything. Why your job stunk. Why you were sick. Why your pet died. Why you should go in the corps, that you should go WOW, or increase the amount you were giving. Forget that they were a young, snot nose, wet behind the ears but somehow barely stayed awake during parts of the advanced class. But they were GRADS! And if you were a grad, you had the stamp of approval. Of course things got much, much worse. Corpse telling people to beat the he** out of their kid. Telling them that their spouse was possessed. Telling them... on and on. Pretending they had the gift of healing and telling the victim to throw away their medicine. Yeah, I know doc vic's objection to this- "I'd make sure I really had revelation"- well, that's what they thought. Oh well, mistakes can be buried. And it HAS happened. Pretending to have a ministry. Yes, pretending- look at old Loy. Never had one. If he did, he threw it away long ago, in the beginning. There are exceptions, but that is the legacy of PFAL. I think the demand of proof of claims not to be at all vulgar or profane, especially in light of the junk most of us have gone through. If they hold all the cards, they should joyfully play them. Prophets are CALLED, not man or self-MADE. Never. Quit stinkin pretending you're something you're not. PFAL is not God. You cannot believe hard enough to be made a prophet, or apostle, or etc.. no amount of work, no amount of effort- all you'll get is a hernia, or embarassed or worse. You can't study hard enough either. Won't happen. Sit back, relax, say, "It's OK, I'm not a prophet, I'm not a MOG.. things will be OK anyway, the sun will still rise tomorrow". Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ really oughta be enough. What more could you want?

Hope it is going OK.. hey, just keep up the good work. I'll keep all of those rascals in doctrinal busy for you, heh heh.

Oh yeah.. sure remember that! I remember folks "miraculously" finding extra cash in their checking accounts. They wrote out some for cash, paid for the class, and low and behold, several checks happened to be just a little late coming in. Must've been da adversary, stealing that "increase" out of their bank accounts.. Happened more than once, at least that I witnessed. But they got da class! I wonder just what we were thinking..

Cripe- whether or not you get results from it does not affect my spirituality. Personally, I don't need to see the dead walk to be convinced that there is a God, or that we've been redeemed by His son, for that matter. But really, what is all of this "mastering of da class" doing for you? Just some nebulous, "well, I'm just so blessed today.." "I can finally see, I am blessed" or is it really tangible? Do you see real miracles, aside the conventional one when you happen to be able to pull up in your favorite parking spot? You may not read my intent- I am not mad, angry, etc.- just would like to know. What good has it, or is it doing? What did PFAL do for me? I learned more in twig- at least more that was really useful. How to pray, what kind of things God might have a voice in about what to pray for- a few other things. With that class, I found myself more and more trying to do the Lord's job. Tried figuring out every detail before taking a single step. Checking every stinking little key trying to determine if it was really the Lord or not. "God expects you to know everything you can know by your five senses". Revelation turned into sense-knowledge analysis. Just doing more and more of God's job. Trying to figure out if it was Word of Knowledge, or Word of Wisdom- or was it something else.. forever analyzing it to death. Ever wonder why he put all that stuff about the manifestations in only three (technically speaking at least) chapters in the bible, and short ones at that? Maybe it's not such the big deal it's cracked up to be. Maybe it's just not as hard as you think. Heck, Samuel's "advanced class" lasted only about a verse and a half. I find it interesting that the vast majority of the instructions in Corinthians regards PROPHECY- i.e., telling people what to do. Boiled down from all of the exhortation/comfort/forthtelling/foretelling definitions, that really is what it comes down to. What about all of those keys- sixteen plus. "God expects you to know what you can know by your five senses" then the heavy revy can kick in, supposedly. Ever think that your sense knowledge reliance and analysis just might be WRONG? Sure was for me, more than once. What in the world would God expect you to know THAT for? My God is a heck of a lot bigger, and far more generous. Labeling revelation given about something you already "know" being phenomenal is ridiculous. What you "know" is usually wrong. Now, through the "help" of your "overseer", you can be a prevailing, schedule the life of the devil out of your daily routine believer. That would have driven me nuts, even then. More work, work work work. No more, at least for me.