TheInvisibleDan

Sky4it - This is a fascinating question which I'll have to explore further than is possible at the moment. Offhand: polygamy was a practice of the peoples of the so-called "Bible Lands", yes? At least so far as the kings and the well-to-do are concerned. King Solomon was reputed to have over 700 wives, and King Herod the Great 10 wives (9 at one time). To what extent it was a practice amongst the common folk, I don't know offhand. I suspect much had to with one's economic situation. As to Greek culture ( or "Roman") it would be interesting to see what issues regarding marriage were circulating around the time the Pastoral epistles were penned. This becomes quite illuminating when considering the social debates and controversies that went on in Roman society concerning notions of masculinity (i.e, cf. "The Satires of Juvenal", satire II) of which the seeming homophobic section of Rom.1:19ff is an obvious product. Danny

I just read a spoiler on this one, and it was just as I suspected - the premise and twist ending sounds an awful lot like the old version of Roger Corman's "Teenage Caveman" starring Robert Vaughn. I hope that one comes out on dvd someday.

I realize this may not be the appropriate place for "doctrinal" discussions but Sky4it's colorful comments in response to John's suggestion that VPW proposed "a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries" is not entirely unwarranted - for anyone who troubles themselves to visit their local libraries to explore what other "biblical research" has been done for at least these past couple of centuries by those countless scholars deliberately ignored by Wierwille, - it is very much so "literal hogwash". But perhaps this can be explored further at another occassion. And Satori - did you actually intend the wily, Elton-John looking "Hamburgler" in place of "Ronald McDevil"? If not, where does our wicked "Hamburgler" friend fit into all of this?

Sunesis - Interesting post. Is it possible that LCM even blackmailed VPW for the position? Perhaps with some "compromising" photos? Danny

Yes. My guess would be that it began or intensified with VPW's "Are the Dead Alive Now?" Danny

Every so often, as oft may happen with any site, for any number of reasons, I get bored or sick of it. Or certain posts rub me the wrong way. Or people don't respond to my posts as I may have unreasonably imagined they might have, if at all. To a certain extent much also depends on what is going on inside of me when I visit this site. Or what kind of mood I'm in. Or what circumstances I may be undergoing in my actual life outside of cyberspace. Visiting GS can be a delight - while at other times, it quite simply turns out to be a bore, the same old, same old. Without doubt, people can be jerks. But half the experience and reaction may depend on what I'm personally going through in my own mind and life. It's been my observation that what transpires here in this site tends to play itself out again and again with other sites. Heck, my wife is a member of a fishing forum, but it could just as well be theological, with the same dramatics and flamings arising over such controversial topics as those who let fish go after catching them verses those who keep them. I think in a number of cases, if one finds oneself taking this site perhaps a bit too seriously, or harbors certain expectations as to what it should or shouldn't be from any sense of personal dissatisfaction or heated interaction, or finds oneself perhaps spending too much time here - then it may be time to simply step back for awhile. Remove the bookmark. Take a break. Or go outside and "smell a flower" as Linda Z. suggested in another thread. Also - GS is not the only forum in the world -we do have other choices. There are a vast number of forums on the internet covering a vast number of themes which one may visit and participate. For goodness sakes, go for a little variety and explore a few. This post is not intended to be a cure-all, end-all to every issue being raised here - but I do think it helps to simply take a break from a forum for awhile, if unhappy with it for any reason. No grand exit posts are necessary. Just take a deep breath, remove the bookmark, let out a sigh, and walk away for awhile. Danny

It is so mind-boggling to observe such an organisation, which at one time depicted itself more or less as something of a "maverick" which gave lip-service to the notion of "Christianity-not-a-religion", having done more to actually reproduce and magnify everything that is most despictable about religion, rendering a number of its members spineless brown-nosers and boot-lickers who would go so far as to sacrifice even their own spouses and families, because the organization "told them so". I'm heartbroken and saddened Belle that this happened to you and so many others. Danny

A pony.

Very interesting post, Mr.Steve "You've-been-conned" (lol). I think the last thing I heard JL dub about me (after corresponding with him via the Onelist a few years ago) was "Mr.Off-the-Word" (lol). WHat was CES' previous motto - "Freedom through Scriptural Accuracy"? In reality it actually should be "Bondage Through Scriptural Tyranny". Danny

I wouldn't either, Excy. He comes across as a very malicious spirit. Danny

At this point it matters very little to me what ulterior motives (if any) John S and JL and others had for making their break from the Way. I'm extremely glad that they did, because I believe their outspoken defiance certainly helped to inspire the same resolve in others at the time to do the same - to get out of the Way. Whatever their reasons might have been, they raised the red flags, at a time in the 80s when there was no Waydale or Greasespot or Path-of-Christ-Ministry or Living-Epistle Society or Center for Marcionite Research ;)--> etc. Even CG's self-deluded ramblings with the whole POP episode helped to underscore that the Way household had quite a few holes in their roof. I've had little issue in the past (at least prior to the advent of "Momentus") recommending people toward the direction of CES (or Bullinger or Concordant Concern publishers), if they were shopping for Way-like doctrines and ideas. CES at the very least may have served as a decent "half-Way house" for folks leaving the old gigantic cult, though I'm not particularly impressed by them nowadays. It strikes my palette as a "tad" stale and moldy. For anyone reading this who is still in the Way and thinking of leaving, here's my personal piece of advice: save some time and dump all the old Way teachings, skip the offshoots altogether, and get thee to a public library! Discover all the cool things you've been missing out on. Danny

Hi Geo, Here's a brief sampling from some works I have read. If you have opportunity, their arguments are IMHO are really worth reviewing. Especially the French authors, who are really quite funny. Fein-Beim Kummel, p.272, in "Introduction to the New Testament" presents a rather conservative estimate: "Writing as a pupil of Paul in the name of Paul, he shows the churches how to repulse the false teachers through correct order in the churches, through sound doctrine...the time best suited for composition is just after the turn of the second century." Morton Scott Enslin, p.303, "Christian Beginnings": "The evidence of a date quite beyond Paul and an essential difference of point of view is further seen in the author's attitude toward Christianity itself...Christianity is now an objective system which men can accept or reject...A comparison of two passages [Rom.8:29,30 cf. to 1 Tim.6:12]...confirms this shift of emphasis and hardening of Christianity into a system of beliefs...(p.306)...Marcion did not include them in his canon. Had he believed them from Paul's pen he would have scarcely refrained... Perhaps the most probable date for all three [1&2 Tim., Titus] would be 100-125 A.D., although personally I do not consider a date fifty years later impossible. (emphasis mine). Bart D. Ehrman, "The New Testament: A Historical Introduction...", p.354: "Up to this point I have tried to show why scholars continue to debate the authorship of the Deutero-Pauline epistles [e.g., Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians], but when we come to the Pastoral epistles, 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, there is greater scholarly unanimity. These three letters are widely regarded by scholars as non-Pauline ...(p.362) they were written near the end of the first century, or somewhat later..." (emphasis on Ehrman's trailing, under-breath comment mine). The French scholars Paul-Louis Couchoud ("The Creation of Christ") and Joseph Turmel ("The Epistles of Paul") through their numerous, colorful works and articles were especially emphatic about placing the writing of the Pastorals about the middle of the second century. I personally think they make a very good case. Who wrote them? It's anyone's guess. Some have proposed St. Clement, others Polycarp of Smyrna. I tend to think St. Clement. Danny

Add to the list the "Missing Jogger" Barbie, with the suspicious liar-Ken doll.

An aged Elvis (Bruce Campbell) and JFK (Ozzie Davis) battle a soul-sucking mummy in a nursing home in Mud Creek, Texas. Damn, my wife sure knows how to pick out my birthday presents (lol). This is a fun and very unusual little indie film, based on a short story by Joe R. Lansdale, with a lot of heart put into the making of it. Bruce Campbell ("Evil Dead", "Army of Darkness") gives a convincing, contemplative and (I think) very respectful depiction of an old Elvis. Ozzie Davis does a fine job with "Jack Kennedy" as well. I don't want to take away the fun and give any spoilers on how Elvis and JFK ended up a nursing home in Texas. If you're looking for something completely different, fun, and even a bit uplifting - this may fit the bill. The dvd also includes many extras and commentaries on the making of "Bubba Ho-Tep". Of course, many of the major studios didn't want to even touch the film, one reason being that the elderly, protagonists -Elvis with a walker and JFK in a wheelchair - didn't fit the mindless, teenage demographic. But c'mon, we're talking about "the King" and JFK" here, fighting an ancient Egyptian mummy feeding on the souls of rest-home residents! How can you go wrong? :)--> Highly recommended for who like this sort of off-the-wall stuff. And for those who like Elvis. *** Danny

Sky4kit - Forgive me for being so rude, but I should have taken a moment amidst my last rambling post to welcome you to the GS! It's funny, but I was also about 17 years old when I first took PFAL. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on how the Bible does not "interpret itself", contrary to what we had been taught in the past. And yes, I still think there are many "jewels" in the Bible to be enjoyed, though in my case these past few years, I've tended to approach the various ideas within the book as a mixed field of wheat and tares, truth and non-truth growing side by side, but which every reader may on their own discern from root to fruit. I've come to find this approach a bit more stimulating and interactive than the former notion of having to "eat" everything through the assumption that all of it was entirely "God-breathed". I think partly due to my own personal observation that the Bible itself had become something of an object of worship in the Way. In any event, welcome to GS, and I hope you enjoy the menu here! Danny

At least one New Testament canon most certainly did exist when the "Timothy" writings were crafted aprox. 150 CE - that of the arch-heretic Marcion of Sinope (I'm sorry, here I go again...), which most likely was in circulation 20 years earlier. But Geo is probably correct that "all scripture" was intended to encompass and even emphasize the Old Testament which Marcion had rejected from his canon. There are many other indicators which provide a dead givaway to the approx. time and occassion for the writing of this material, by reason of it being directed against a rival heretic and his church in the middle of the second century. Paul is reinvented in the Pastoral epistles and used to attack 2nd cent. rivals who esteemed Paul as the only trustworthy apostle. This new improved pasteurized Paul speaks against points of Marcion's doctrine - e.g., "forbidding to marry" (1 Ti.4:3) - Marcion promoted celibacy -"abstaining from foods" - Marcionites were vegetarians - a warning against some who would make "shipwreck" the faith - Marcion was a sea captain - with even the title of his lost work "Antithesis" (or "contradictions") being cleverly employed (1 Ti 6:20). Too many little coincidences. Indeed, a many standard NT introductions provide a few other reasons for categorizing these writings as deutero-Pauline, having mostly to do with the writing style. And there's the classic work by P.K. Harrison, "The Problem of the Pastoral Epistles". And after going through twi, which held these letters in such high esteem, I'm sure we could cite a few more. ;)--> Danny

Uncle Hairy- I was struck with a distinctive sense of a sitting through an old television re-run when reading of your encounters with Momentus recruiters amidst the CES society - that rerun being "PFAL", and all the hype that went into promoting it; my recollections of the constant barrage new people underwent at "Take-A-Stand Caravans," such as the one (interestingly enough, hosted by Mr. Fabulous Salesperson himself, JL) in which I lost almost all my old friends in one evening, friends whom I foolishly invited to this extravaganza and who became overwhelmed by the aggressive soul merchants, and quite justifiably wanted little to do with me following that ordeal. I'm kind of glad I didn't personally come into contact with any Momentus promotors years later, when it was all the craze with CES (perhaps during the same time Linda described earlier), but merely the promo material and class info I received in the mail was enough to quickly turned me off to it at the time. Besides, if I had taken it, I probably would have ended up stuttering like J-J-Jimmy Stewart. Danny

In my observation, twi's common application of their bizarre notion of "reproof" was extremely overblown and way-out-of-line. Even if one accepts the authenticity of the "Pastoral Epistles" (which btw, I personally do not, but perhaps that would be left for another discussion ), our introduction to the notion of "reproof" in 2 Tim.3:16 through PFAL had to do with issues relating to the area of "doctrine" - or as VPW asserted, "right" or "wrong" "believing", and the reproving and correction of "doctrine" gone wild. But NO - that's not at all how I recall "REPROOF" being primarily exercised in twi. More often than not, one was "reproved" for such anal-retentive things as accidently leaving a bottle of ketchup on the table, or showing up late for a meeting or class because some inconsiderate doltish leader didn't provide accurate road directions (a common occurrance,lol), or any number of trite, farty banal things hardly worth giving another human being the third-degree and scolding them as a lowlife under the delusional, mega-maniacal notion that one was supposedly exercising their godly duty. The notion of "Reproof" was almost wholly overblown, misappropriated and abused in twi. Ironically, it became a "doctrine" which itself should have "reproved" and "corrected" in its inexcusable misapplication for other than what was actually intended by pseudonymous writer of the "Pastoral" literature, within the context of "doctrinal" issues. Danny

(LOL) Omigosh, did you hum the "Jaws" theme for the occassion, and did she ever forgive you? Danny

Some things which personally strike me as peculiar about the "lifeboat" exercise (at least on the basis of what I'm able to gather here), especially if the class was designed to make one a better or more effective Christian. For instance, what were the main reasons given by people who did not vote themselves to remain on the imaginary lifeboat? Was it from a compulsion of the well-known, traditional Christian virtue of "self-sacrifice" - that they gave up their spot on the boat so that others might live? Or did the Momentus trainers assert otherwise, in such a way perhaps suggesting that many Christians were actually using the notion of self-sacrifice as an excuse to not care for or value their selves? Just curious. Thanks. Danny

I was going ask about that (lol). I had wondered if they played selections by Schoenberg, Varese, later William Schuman or even Bernard Herrmann's soundtrack to "Vertigo". I can't imagine anyone becoming stressed out by Tchaikovsky's "Serenade for Strings", unless it was Herbert von Karajan's blasty rendition on Deutsch Gramophone (which sounds LOUD even when the volume is down). I'm trying to find a decent chamber orchestra performance of this piece on cd or vinyl. Danny

Okay, the picture I derive from Bill Barton's Momentus experience posted by pjroberge, with the personal/subjective opinions removed and re-edited in an attempt to form an unbiased picture of what actually goes on in these classes: 1. The class starts off with an introductory session in which [the lights are turned out?] and [students are] treated to loud music (much of the music played during the training [is played] at [very loud] volumes.) 2.Then comes a dramatic reading from some introductory material, interspersed with a few verses from the [bible version] the Message. 3.After this opening, the trainers cite "ground rules" for the training, and require students to sign an agreement to abide by these rules. Students were also required to sign a "hold harmless" agreement, asserting that they'd been "adequately informed" of what the training consisted of and that _no matter what happened to them in (or as a result of) the training -- including death -- they'd hold the trainers and the sponsors harmless."_ Rumor has it that later Momentus trainers issued vomit bags to the crew _-- because they expected some people taking the training to become violently ill during some of the exercises. 4. The trainers spent the first two days [breaking] down students through verbal abuse and exercises. 5. The students were required to make commitments to what they wanted to "cause" in others 6. The first two days of the training ended with the "Lifeboat" exercise, in which students were forced to condemn their classmates to "life or death." Who "lived" and who "died" depended on who they voted into the lifeboat [following] a visualization session in which they were on a cruise ship that suddenly started sinking. The exercise taught that only [extroverts?] would end up in the lifeboat and be saved. [introverts?] ended up in the water, "dead." Students then had to give their "epitaphs" from their watery graves about how worthless they were. 7. Students were required early on to choose a buddy to "watch over" during the training. If anyone left, they were told, their buddy had to leave, too. This [didn't actually happen], as several people did leave the training and yet their buddies were always allowed to stay--but not before being subjected to serious condemnation and verbal abuse for not somehow forcing their buddies to stay through the entire training. 8. Because a few people didn't complete the first night's homework assignment as required--writing only a page and a half instead of two pages, for example -- the trainer [emphatically with a hint of anger] said that he was ending the training. The only way he'd let students complete it, he asserted, was if they all got together and persuaded those who hadn't done the homework as required to agree to finish it during that day. Rumor has it that this was all part of the "script" for the training. The trainer for that class did the same thing, but after he returned to the room, some of the trainees still hadn't agreed to finish their homework--so he had to leave the room again to "give them more time." The training would have continued regardless. 9. So the training continued. Students grouped in circles [in a darkened room] to "confess their sins" to the trainers as they ran down a litany of sins, to which they were to raise their hands if guilty, with some weeping in the process. 10. Later in the circle groups, babies are sacrificed, with their blood drained into their decapitated skullcaps and passed around in a circle for students to sup, signifying their full initiation into the secret society of Momentus. (heh-heh, only kidding!) So is this a fairly accurate picture of what goes on in all the classes? Again, I'm only dependant upon the critical reports of experiences here for details...

It may be reasonable to assume that, despite the number of martyrs, some early Christians remained silent for fear of the threats upon their lives during periods of intense persecution; while others such as the gnostic movements regarded themselves as having attained a higher gnosis incomprehensible to their lowly, brotherly mortals. Now the latter assumption may not be entirely accurate, considering that much information concerning the gnostics come to us through the writings of their critics. With some of these groups one wishes to possess writings that come expressed from their perspective. Unfortunately, the historian has little recourse but to depend upon the critics to gather information in order to reconstruct their opponents' ideas and intents. So the historian is put into the position: how much of this stuff is true, and how much of it is exaggerated? How much reported is fact, and how much is fiction? If one doesn't hear more from the Pro-Momentians, then that leaves us with only the critical voices to reconstruct this theology/philosophy/whatever-the-hell-it-is. And that's not going to make my great, great,great,great,great brethren-historians all too happy. And what's even worse - if Momentus truly does offer some type of key to the universe (or whatever), that secret may become lost forever. Do you really want to deprive my future, starving great-great-great-great-great mutant one-eyed children historians of that? :(--> Of course you don't .... ;)--> Unless you hate children.... And you don't REALLY hate children, DO YOU? :o--> Danny

I got harrassed by the "Bless Patrol" once. I was in a bad mood at a ROA ( I guess a criminal offence at any ROA) in the mid-80s, the last one I attended - and I guess they spotted the dark cloud hovering over my head as I was taking a stroll through the "Way Woods" one evening, trying to sort things through my mind. A command boomed forth from a yellow-hat Nazi, "STOP THERE, SIR!...SHOW ME YOUR LICENSE!" After showing my id, I was free to go...Needless to say, this overgrown "Deputy Dog" did not "bless" me at all. That was a weird ROA. I think it was '85.

It's always a pleasure, Steve. You likewise spark my imagination, and provide delicious food for thought. Now that's an approach I never considered (makes me feel a little better about myself - thank you)- is one actually more justified in questioning the validity of certain sections of scripture on the basis of their learning of the content of reconstructed ancient versions - or worst off and even disingenuous for accepting it as "God's Word" and outright rejecting and rationalizing inconvenient sections away? So Momentus teaches that human beings cannot be "broken" if they're going to receive the purest revelation from God (apparently overlooking that Paul regarded himself as an "abortion" and the least of all the apostles, an offscouring of the earth, among other less-than-positive things ). Yet one must become a perfectly tweaked, functioning human being like Jesus - alas! -might we be enountering here (yet another) possible "self-inflicted wound" arising from VPW's doctrinal stance in "Jesus Christ is not God"/CES-refried-recipe? hmmm...I personally prefer hiding the Good God's precepts in my heart than striving to become a perfect man in the flesh. see what I mean, Steve. You always spark my imagination about these things. with warmest regards, Danny