TheInvisibleDan

This casino, this day, I will build, unto you, verily.

Very insightful "Uncle Hairy". Danny

I didn't know "Uncle Harry" at all - only through his image which appeared as a cross between Burl Ives and Colonal Sanders, upon whose life and legend we were exhorted to burn our books and records. Why burn and trash our cherished (but apparently devilish) mementos in memory of this celebrated, brother War-bucks goober? he helped build the ministry, was a big giver and was pretty good with money- therefore we should trash our stuff (and torch our devilish influences) in his honor? Weird. Very weird. Now it may have been more appropriate and understandable if we were encouraged to give stuff away to those in need, rather than trash it. That would have been more "Christian" it seems. Danny

I too likewise was always quite grateful to get through the manifestations part of the fellowship without getting picked out to speak with tongues and interpret. The styrofoam cup of coffee and raw brocolli and open conversations following all the formal jang-a-lang became all the more welcome. Just hanging out and shooting the breeze. When I tried to speak in tongues during a practice session during my first class someone said that I sounded like an American Indian. Thinking back, it was probably the spirit of a Mohegan foretelling of the casinos to come to my state, as opposed to whatever improvisational "interpretation" I provided at the time. :)--> Danny

As Lindy and Sunesis mentioned earlier in this thread, a good many folks in the earliest centuries of Christian history, such as those of the Marcionites and various gnostic movements, did reject the Old Testament God, believing that Christ (or "Krestus" = the Kind, the Benevolent One) was an alien to this world who had revealed a new, higher God of goodness, in contrast to the harsh, wordly God of justice and judgment in the OT. Interestingly, for some of the same reasons athiests and agnostics reject the OT deity today on account of his cruelties, a number of early Christians also did for the same reasons, prior to the suppression of these movements. Incidently the Arch-heretic Marcion (circ.70 -150 CE) compiled and circulated the earliest known NT canon, around 130 CE, along with a treatise entitled "Antithesis" which drew a comparison of OT and NT passages to demonstrate the character differences between deities. Marcion's canon comprised of one gospel ( of which the orthodox "Luke" is a gaudy, almost laughable expansion) and 10 letters attributed to Paul in shorter form. Marcion's canon served as the catalyst which compelled his proto-orthodox rivals to come up with their own canon, to which they added the deutero-Pauline "Pastoral Epistles" which depicts this "Paul" even attacking Marcion's treatise by name. The Apostle's Creed also contains much distinctly anti-marcionite, almost refuting their rival's ideas point by point. The Marcionites were at one time Catholicism's most formidible rival, and the texts which have come down to us reflect this fact in the polemical touches throughout. No Marcionite literature has survived, outside of citations of the Marcionite text and reported beliefs found in the dissertations leveled against them by Tertullian, Epiphanius, Adamantius (Pseudo-Origin), and a few others. Danny

Upon our first exposure of twi, some of us (myself included) might not have even known what a concordance or lexicon was at the time, much less know how to use those things. A good many of us were fairly young when we first got involved. I was introduced to concordances and lexicons and interlinears through twi, which was actually a good thing. And for anyone starting out opening such reference volumes, they may take a bit of time and practice getting used to, before gaining enough confidence in one's own abilities to look up things to verify their own conclusions. How does a 17 year old fool unschooled in the field of religion go about disagreeing with a seemingly seasoned and knowlegable fifty-something year old "Doctor"? And who does not promote his theology as "theology" but as something of a hip "un-theology"? (e.g., "true Christianity is not a religion"..compared to those other stodgey religious groups -bound to appeal to kids) - with the premise being emphasized that we would be taught and enabled to look stuff up in the amazing, supposed self-interpreting Bible for ourselves? Sure you and I and everyone else are smarter and more experienced now, and can pose such questions. But the fact of our youth and inexperience when many of us were first exposed to W's teachings can't be overlooked.

I'll be damned, there it is - http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/belize_rel_03.jpg if you blink you'll miss it. :)-->

My gosh, I hadn't even so much heard of a nation called "Belize", let alone the existance of this apparent religious-educational commune thingy - are you sure this country called "Belize " even exists? I don't recall hearing the name "Belize" (sounds like the name of a beer or an acne cream) mentioned in my 6th grade social studies class when we were studying South America - no sir, but that was back in '73 (lol). :D-->

Twi's sharp line of distinction between "household" and "family" (which I first heard from "the Way Tree" seminar taught by J. Townsend) was always among those doctrines which caused me to go, "huh?" Especially when one starts inquiring as to what particular Greek word or words lay behind the word "family" -as opposed to "household". with the KJV, it's patria (strongs # 3965) - translated only once as "family" in Eph.3:15 - and in 2 other places as "lineage" and "kindreds". "household" is of course translated from the "oik-" Greek words (e.g., Strongs # 3609, and numerous others I'm too lazy to list here at the moment). But what contrasting Greek words would twi have us assign for "family" to distinguish from "household"? There really are none. At the risk of overstatement for the sake of brevity here, "family" and "household" are essentially synonyms. Some translators use "family" in place of "household" and vice-versa when handling the "oik-" words, and I think rightly so.

Did anyone else catch this newer version of Stephen King's "Salem Lot" on TNT the past couple nights, starring Rob Lowe, Rutger Hauer, and Donald Sutherland? I thought it was very well done. A lot more deeper and creepier than the older version. I think it's going to be on again throughout the week. Highly recommended! I'm going to tape it this time around.

Perhaps Mike's commune of flies-on-the-wheel forbids the internet. ;)-->

Acute indigestion, at trying to figure out what "trigs" are.

Two things leap out from this verse. First, if this were any other book, it would be obvious to all that Jesus is correcting the questioner's mistake, yet trinitarians have told me (with a straight face, even) that what Jesus is really doing is affirming that the questioner has correctly indicated him as God. The Marcionite version, according to Couchoud's reconstruction,-though not differing much here -reads: "He said to him, Why do you call me Good? One alone is Good, God the Father!" Is it possible that this verse can be construed in the sense of "those who have seen me, have seen the Father"?, rather than as Jesus correcting the questioner? If Jesus was affirming himself as "Good" (and therefore God) solely from a position of pride, as you argue, - then what of the latter, -"I'm not Good but God is" - where such a case of extreme modesty would compel one to lie? Was Jesus not "Good"? This was precisely the epithat given to Jesus by the modalist Marcionites. Where the Marcionite version does differ is that it is the rich man who cites the commandments back to Jesus - "I know the commandments: Do not kill; do not commit adultery, (etc.) - to which Jesus responded, "One thing is lacking you: all that you have, sell it. Give it away to the poor...."

Yes, it still is, Def. :)-->

Hardly solid examples in every case of "rejection" or failure! If I recall correctly, Moon now runs or owns a newspaper and university or two. What a failure. So hence "John" betrays his actual time and place of his compositions - early second century, when the supposed gnostic threat was quite active. Though some have also argued gnostic elements being present in John's writings, prompting the question, How much "gnosticism" did John reject, -or adopt? Millions of Catholics today apparently don't think so. Silly me - I had thought our government pretty much contributed to their fiery end. Yeah, just like it was in twi. Same crap, different day.

Perhaps they should have suitably called themselves "The Way Biblical Tired Re-tread Society".

What th - You didn't like my post? I was only trying to be helpful. And the "quick-fix" advice I provided for re-creating the class in the comfort of your own home (though I would add, use early 70s pornographic photos - its the afros that will push the envelope) can be quite an ultra-positive, life-affirming substitute, and could save you a bundle of time and money toward accomplishing the same "experience" derived from taking the actual class. 70s photos featuring naked white people with perm-afros, drooling hunting dogs, and a middle aged preacher trying to look 40 years old wearing a checkered polyester suit will help your spirit attain CF&S Nirvana. And for FREE! Ya can't "beat" that! ;)--> :)-->

Ana, if you receive the one page syllabus to this class, you can easily re-create the magical spirit of the class with the following materials: 1.) a list of slang terms for male and female genitalia ; 2.) a picture of VPW in his 70s incarnation, with sideburns and windblown California hair; 3.) pictures of naked men and women doing it; 4.) a picture of a drooling hunting dog. With all these things set before your eyes, you'll have CF&S in the nutshell. To attain the fullest effect, just stare at all this stuff for 20-30 hours, while chanting the mantra, "Beee-yooo-teee-ful" a lot. And during any breaks you take, be sure to play "Pressed Down" or Joyful Noise, eat raw brocolli and dip, and drink stale coffee from a styrofoam cup.

Darn, I missed that thread, but I did recently behold a whale falling from outer space in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"....

From my perspective, I tend to view twi as also having maintained their own distinctive brand of "legalism", but one which ultimately (strangely enough) supported or accommodated their "licentiousness". Make no mistake about it - as I recall, there was plenty of "legalism" in twi, though seemingly designed to fuel the "licentiousness" of the leaders. And I think in many cases, they even derived their justification for their legalism right out of the Old Testament (i.e., tithing, Man-of-God, every-woman-belongs-to-the-king,etc.). Wierwille lied when he said that the Gospels belonged to the category of the OT - in practice the words of Jesus carried even less authority than the Torah. The Gospels might as well have been regarded on the level of apocrypha, fine for some historical bits about Jesus and a couple lessons on "believing", with the teachings of Jesus being almost wholly inapplicable and irrevelant to Christians. Sticking only to the writings of Paul, devoid of an intimate connection to the "golden rule" sayings of Christ, we also might just as well have been followers of Mithra, standing beneath a grate with the warm blood of bulls being shed upon our heads, or followers of Dionysus babbling in tongues incoherently as evidence of our spirituality. Danny

When I was in 5th grade, I used to draw comic books featuring giant monsters stomping on my school, with all my least favorite teachers pinned beneath the weight of it's scattered beams. The school actually existed, so it must have really happened. -->

When driving around the vicinity of Norwalk/New Canaan/Westport CT. with my in-laws a few years ago, they would oft point to a small shopping center and exclaim, "That was where the supermarket scenes in The Stepford Wives was shot..." - the original 1975 version. Likewise several scenes in the new version of "The Stepford Wives" was shot around the same area (New Canaan, Greenwich, NY). It was fun seeing the Merritt Parkway on the screen. Wish I could provide more insight on the mansions but I'm not from that ritzy part of the state. The new version ( starring Nicole Kidman, Matthew Broderick, Glenn Close, Christopher Walken, and Jon Lovitz) unlike the serious, suspenseful 1975 version, is obviously a comedy, true to the tone conveyed in the theatrical trailers. I won't give anything away -but I thought it worked well as a comedy. It was a pleasant Friday night diversion. Yes indeed, we're all robots in Connecticut. :)--> *** 3 stars.

I don't think the Way's eschatology by itself is as entertaining and complex. Not having really attained within the inner circle of Way initiates, I suppose I can only speak of my own encounters with their "milk" doctrines. The essential eschatology of the Way consisted of the following: we live within the dispensation of grace which commenced on Pentecost, to terminate with our "gathering together" (1 Thess. 4; 1 Cor.15) to Christ (= the "rapture") - the timing of which event is not indicated by any true or false signs, miracles and wonders in the world. It could happen in a thousand years - or it can before I end typing this. As far as the Book of Revelation and the apocalypses found in the Gospels are concerned, those were regarded as addressed to Israel, as not pertaining to the members of the Church or body of Christ at all. On the grand scale next to the other religions you describe, the Way's eschatology was quite static and not very colorful by comparison. So any special "prophecies" or "revelations" may have tended to be more the short term, "Dead Zone" type (as featured in Christopher Walken's hilarious "Trivial Prophet" skit from SNL a few years ago). Or oft pertaining to a "lack of white corpsucles" during prayers of healing someone. Or guessing which devil was giving one a headache. But grand "prophecies" and predictions regarding a change in the spiritual or Biblical dispensations in which we lived - aside from perhaps some activities I've heard the Way Corp. undergo through a conspiratorial, paranoid take on current political and world events (as described by Geo above) - appear lacking in my view. But I only speak from my own personal viewpoint and experience. I bet those who were in the Corp. could proivde more colorful experiences. Danny

Goey, Agreed, though considering how effective these various elements orchestrated together toward eradicating Christ from a supposed Christian organization, might at least give one pause to wonder what "higher powers" were actually at work driving Wierwille, if still entertaining the existence of an unseen, spiritual realm. But if Wierwille just "fell" upon this stuff, in the manner everything took shape, "the Devil" must be envious (lol). Danny

The person who wrote this received a degree for it? Shoot, they ought to pass out a few of those degrees to a few writers here, beginning with you, Raf. :)-->