TheInvisibleDan

ST(I)F(F)[Y] The Bush Kangaroo (International) Sounds like SPAM. I better STFU. :)-->

Rottiegrrl - The "Mayberry Church", or the "First Church of Mayberry" - now that's a sure winner! :)--> Danny

While I'm at it, I should change my own alias to "Dippity Dan, Slayer of Threads" --> [This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on December 18, 2003 at 7:19.]

The "Spirit and Truth Fellowship International" - it does have a rather peculiar clunkiness to it. Needs to be shortened somehow. The hendiadys "spirit and truth" could be thus rendered: "The Spiritual Truth, Mfg." or "The Truthful Spirit, Inc." (lol!) Whatever. Danny

Let's also not overlook Karl Kahler's well done book on the topic, "The Cult That Snapped". That might be a good question to also pursue, namely, how many hard-copy books and exposes have been done on the topic of twi. I'm aware that there are a few written dissertations out there that refute the Way from a doctrinal standpoint. And I suspect there are a few books which remain to be written, on any number of areas which might be expanded. John Jeude's site is perhaps the best when it comes to VPW's plagiarism. But even there, he's hardly scratched the tip of the iceburg (check out "Is Cancer a Devil Spirit?" in the doctrinal thread, esp. on the topic of W. Branham). Danny

I think you will find quite a few things rummaging through the link pages at the sites listed above; but with a bit of time and patience, the following site is an excellent place to go through - http://www.redbay.com/ekklesia/behome.htm Danny

See? You're not alone. There's a wealth of excellent, loving insight and advice here. Danny

Yes, Zixar is correct. I described the way my Nero software functioned rather the type of blank cd. Sorry. Danny

"Music" is generally for making cds act like any other music cd (and at about the same length -70-80 minutes, 650-750 MB), that can be played in most cd players; data, on the other hand, is for the storage of any kind of file (music, texts, programs), files that one might back up when cleaning off one's hard-drive. However, if you're burning mp3s, and want to keep them in the mp3 format and get a few hours out of one cd, pick "data". I know I'm able to play my "data" mp3 cds on my dvd player. Or even in the pc cdrom player. But if you choose the "music" option (I'm guessing you're using Nero?) for burning mp3s on a cd, your mp3s will be converted to wav/cd files, and you'll get 70-80 minutes worth of stuff on a cd. Someone else can probably offer a more technical explanation. Danny

Thank you, Socks. I'm glad you enjoyed the links. I've been toying with a hypothesis the past couple of years that Christianity may have started out or developed into a religion primarily of ancient seafarers. In the same sense that the contemporary movement of Mithraism was popular amongst soldiers. It certainly might offer one possibility how it spread so widely and rapidly throughout the then known world. I'm speculating that sailors found the gospel quite appealing, considering that Jesus chose to make disciples out of fishermen, of all professions. Something they strongly identified with. I can only imagine that amidst violent storms, seafarers found great comfort in the tale of Jesus stilling the storm. Danny [This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on December 03, 2003 at 21:37.]

Here are a couple links that might be of great interest here, while on the subject of the cross and Christian symbols: http://www.bright.net/~gray0013/symbols/symbols.html http://home.rochester.rr.com/gocek/images/christn/ I find the early Christian mariner symbols ( e.g., the cross depicted as an anchor, the church as a ship) to be particularly fascinating. Danny

If you're really into enjoying some "bad" (or even psychotic) Santas", or just to take a break from a possible overdose of holiday cheer, check out "Christmas Evil" (a.k.a. "Terror in Toyland") released in the early 80s. The Toma productions dvd (with an peculiar audio commentary by the disgruntled independent film director) was pretty cheap. But it's a damn good campy movie and overall entertaining experience, with a cool, dissonant Christmas soundtrack (crank up the stereo!). It belongs up there with "It's a Wonderful Life" as one of my favorite holiday "classics". Danny

Testing, testing...

With the notable exception of the older, brilliant "Grinch" cartoon (what could the 2 hour, long-winded Jim Carrey/Ron Howard abortion that came out a couple years ago accomplish, that the old 25 minute cartoon couldn't?) , Dr. Suess absolutely sucks in the live action format. And how long does it take to read the original "Cat in the Hat" - 5 minutes? With Dr.Suess pushing up daisies, naturally they have to hire a team of no-talent writers to come up with superfluous garbage to pad the original short story, and to kill an hour and a half. What a waste of money - and time. Danny

If they rejected the "symbol" of the cross of Christ, it appears, at least to me, that a considerable amount of the "substance" of the cross of Christ was rejected/ignored/disrespected/ridiculed as well. If not tracable to Wierwille's writings, it certainly - and somehow - came out in a considerable amount of rotten "fruit", so to speak. The creation of a new humanity (via the blood of the cross - Eph.2:14f), whereof all members of the body of Christ are equal, regardless of earthly race/gender/social standing - how did that translate into the structure of the Way organization, divided and subdivided as it was into the various leadership/overlord/school categories? (BTW, I don't only have a bone to pick with the Way in this regard). This alone is far from exhibiting or reflecting an especial appreciation and deep understanding in the meaning of the cross of Christ. The abolishment of the Old Testament? We went half the way with this ("things written beforehand for our learning"), but never really entirely let go the old leaven of the Old Testament (e.g., from the fear and retribution of tithing, the (written or unwritten)exaltation of a "man of God", the increase of legalism that cripples the group even more so to this day). The abolishment of all hostile angelic powers (attributed to the cross by Paul) - VP was almost there, but he prematurely assumed that only "devil spirits" were the "archons" in 1 Cor.2:6-8; in other words, we knew everything about the weakest classes of angels (comparitively speaking), but apparently had little next to no inkling of the type of angelic powers Paul was actually speaking of here - namely, those angelic powers that served as enforcing overseers to the OT law (Gal.4, Col.2). And finally, it's unfortunate that the Way apparently took little advantage of its own Aramaic studies, for in Eph.2:15b, in association with the cross, it reads (as have Tertullian and St.Ephraem also cited these passages) "...and the law of commandments by His commandments [= the commandments of Christ] he abolished, that from the both of them he might create one new man..." One might ask, what were the "commandments" of Christ? Somehow the sayings of Jesus were viewed, even from the vantage point of the cross, as having comprised the "new commandments" which replaced the abolished Old Testament. Early Christians oft interpreted the "maxims" or "precepts" of Jesus as having comprised or included His sayings uttered on the Sermon on the mount, the new law of Christ for all christians to abide by. Precepts on how to treat other fellow human beings. But rather than treat the sayings of Jesus as also suggested in their importance in the meaning of the cross of Christ, - we relegated them (those contained in the gospels) to the same ineffective status of the Old Testament commandments(!). Wierwille would not need to have worried about losing his ministry to "license" had he known that the sayings of Jesus were the "new commandments" for Christians to live in accordance with, instead of construing and abusing the idea of "grace" as some period of a free-for-all orgy-rama. Merely from my observations of the attestation of experiences expressed throughout this forum, I don't think it "pure folly" that the Way missed the boat somewhere concerning the meaning of the cross. I submit that GS would not exist here today had the Way grasped and appreciated a fuller understanding of the cross of Christ. It's obvious to at least myself that a lot was missed. Which is unfortunate. Danny

TWI never ignored or ridiculed or rejected the cross of Christ. Perhaps I am missing something. Are you saying that the original meaning of Kit Sober's words "the cross of Christ" meant she was talking about the wooden/silver cross? If that's true, then one may also believe that a person cannot respect or admire the cross Christ bore without having a symbol around one's neck to prove it... But the converse of that - if I'm recalling correctly, even if vaguely at the moment - is that the wood/gold/silver/plastic crosses were viewed in the category of a "religious" symbol - and being a symbol of religion - had no place in the mindset that "true Christianity is not a religion". I think amidst our religious-like zeal in accepting the idea of "true" Christianity was "not a religion", led to an attitude of rejecting a number of symbols traditionally associated with what was oft referred as "Christen-dumb". Which is understandable in certain respects, but we obviously overreacted in others. The symbol of the cross being one of the casualties. Don't you remember the mockery in circulation, "If Jesus died in an electric chair, would we wear electric chairs around our necks?" How many folks do you think were motivated from this sort of expression of attitude to wear a cross? If they did they most likely kept it under their shirts. But such was instilled in us - the cross is a symbol of execution, of death. I think we were second only to vampires in our abhorrance of it. After all, anyone subscribing to "true" Christianity ought to rather exalt the "resurrection" or "Pentecost"! Am I making all this up? Is this only my unique recollection and impression of the attitude that prevailed amongst us at the time (up to '87)? or was I dreaming all of this up? Danny [This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on November 27, 2003 at 3:34.]

Whoa! That's my imperfect way of trying to convey that this is a profound insight, ex-10. Thank you. And to Kit and to all of the other contributors on this thread. Danny

"Get busy living, or get busy dying." -Shawshank Redemption 4:12

I don't recall hearing anything, - in fact, I must have been completely oblivious to everything in the news, being only 3 years old at the time. JFK -who? I imagine I only wanted to watch cartoons while pooping my pants. But my older brother still recalls seeing Oswald get shot on live TV. Danny

I find it very interesting, from my own learning many years later, that the cross of Christ forms the very basis for "the mystery" taught by Paul. Paul attributes the very creation of a "new humanity" - wherein all members are equal and there is no distinction or division according to race, gender or social position - not to the resurrection, not to Pentecost - but to the cross (Eph.2:14ff). This was the event that put all these things into effect, along with the abolishment of the Law and the worldly angelic powers which administered and enforced it. All these things are attributed by Paul to the cross. I always felt there was something critically lacking in the way the Way taught the mystery, a fact which I think is especially reflected in their interpretation that Paul only preached the "mystery" of the cross (1 Cor.2:1f) to Corinthians supposedly because they were too "spiritually immature" to understand truths relating to the "resurrection" (does anyone else recall this teaching?)- In other words, issues relative to the cross were intended for immature nitwits, while the "meat" of the resurrection for the fully initiated. Which interpretation is total nonsense. Danny

He's so clean.

That strikes me as a good possibility, Jerry. Danny

Thank you for your post, which woke my brain up to some of the gnostic trivia kickin' about. Zix, Aside from a few faint ideas, I haven't figured out Morpheus yet. It's probably right beneath my nose. I need to go see the third movie. There's a good excuse to go see it. Danny

No, it's not a stretch at all. From the first movie, the ideas throughout (from Neo receiving his "call" to "waking up" from the worldly stupor and all its illusions; of humans being used by the machines for power, cf. the sparks of the divine being trapped and held captive in the world and its angelic overseers) are excellent illustrations of the themes in Christian-gnosticism. A decent introduction and review for gnostic themes can be found in "The Gnostic Religion" by Hans Jonas. He does an excellent job in providing an overview of the various ideas common amongst the gnostic movements. I would be more tempted, perhaps, to associate the "Architect" with the creator "demiurge" or atificer - not necessarily Lucifer. Lucifer and the creator-demiurge of the OT were oft viewed in gnostic movements as two distinctive entities. Though I have encountered the opinion of at least one writer, Joseph Turmel, who proposed that if anyone identified the OT creator-god with Lucifer, it was the author of the gospel of John. But outside of that, many gnostics maintained the distinction between the two. Until I see the third Matrix installment, just from what I've gathered here so far, I wonder if Agent Smith wouldn't fit the "Lucifer" role better, though this may be premature on my part. Danny

Rafael, Which Leonard work is that bizarre stuff from? Thanks. Danny