T-Bone

Freud posted April 17 2006 3:48 AM "As you point out...interest and work are not mutually exclusive. I am vague...but not to be deceptive...but rather protective. As far as knowing about TWI...well I must admit that my knowledge about it was pretty much ziltch...yes I had a distant recollection of the name...but nothing of substance. My main focus has been on quasi-political cults with a passing interest in purely religious ones. I did a lot of research on the American Militia movement back in the early 90's...prior to the Waco debacle and the Oak City bombing. I have spoken extensively on the Michigan Milita and other para-military groups. I have also spoken to several churches but my lectures concern various aspects of belief...not religious ideology. In addition I've been on Christian Radio stations discussing various aspects of belief and faith. Anyhow....I'll be away from the 'puter for a few days...but I'll check back mid week. Whoever LCM really is as a person...the folks here who have seen him in action over several years probably have a clearer picture of the man than the selective and filtered one that I have experienced. I just thought that I would add my experiences into the arena of discussion. Take them and do what them whatever you will!" I'm sorry -I hate to be so nit picky - but if Freud has lectured at several churches and has been on Christian Radio stations - then why is he so secretive here? For protection? Did he appear at the churches with a brown paper bag over his head? Did he appear on the radio stations under an alias like Freud?...I'm not writing off Freud - I just find odd - that someone claims to have even a small interest in religious cults would say TWI never registered a serious blip on his radar.

Freud posted April 16 2006 8:26 PM: "Folks, 24 hours ago I didn't know this site existed nor was I aware that so many people had been deeply affected by a person who I met a few years ago. Here is my story... A few years back....In a casual social situation I met a man named Craig Martindale. It was not a religious or work situation, just a casual social event attended by lots of other people. He asked me what I did for a living, when I told him, it became obvious that I had struck a nerve. It is important that confidentiality be maintained, so I will be vague, but some of my work centers around the various aspects of religious belief and the dynamics of cults and religious leaders. Craig was very interested in the topic and ended up in a long extended conversation on the issue. He mentioned that he had been active in a ministry and that he was a former pastor. He was vague about his past and it was clear to me that something significant had occured in his life. Over the next few years I had the opportunity to have several discussions with him regarding faith, reason, family, love and work. We avoided any serious discussion of his past ministry because it seemed to ellicit incredible sadness." After reading Al Poole's post I went back to the Freud's initial post on the other thread - and bold-ed and red colored two items of note - so it makes me wonder If Freud's work centered around various aspects of religious beliefs, the dynamics of cults and religious leaders - then how come he never ran across Grease Spot Café up until April 16 2006?

Can I throw in a bumper sticker I saw [back in 1975 but I'll never forget it]: "Jesus Christ is coming back...and boy, is he pi$$ed"

This is from the Complete Jewish Bible translated by David H. Stern, co. 1998, Jewish New Testament Publications, Matthew 27:46: "At about three, Yeshua uttered a loud cry, "Eli! Eli! L'mah sh'vaktani? [My God! My God! Why have you deserted me?]." Also, noteworthy in regards to Jesus' trust in God is Luke 23: 46 where he committed his spirit into the Father's hands [which he said AFTER the Matthew 27: 46 statement]- and of further interest is that is from a Psalm also - Psalm 31: 5.

Personally, I LOVE reading threads like this...I appreciate everyone being open and honest - and like CM said I like to broaden my perspective...I'm not going any where with this - just putting out my thoughts on the matter...What always intrigues me [especially on subjects like this] is how people think...It used to be back in my TWI days - I was always getting Scripture and logic together to drive home a point or win an argument...It's amazing how often I come away from reading a thread - and thoughts and ideas linger from different posts... ...I sorta get the idea the way this thread is going is: "I show you mine if you show me yours."...So - don't want to convince anyone here to my way of thinking - just want to explain a few things on how I think beliefs work...I figure some of it has got to come from our upbringing, some "more deliberate" changes in our viewpoints are from the 7 mind-changing factors of Gardner I mentioned in the What does it take to change your mind thread... ...I also think most of the time we function as rational beings - and so perhaps at a subconscious level our minds are processing things to establish a consistency with all the elements of our viewpoint or philosophy...That being said - here's what I think goes on in my own head in matters of my Christian faith. I guess it starts out with the idea of accepting there is a God - I subscribe to the intelligent design theory. And my brain works out from there [this God, the intelligent designer of the universe had the Bible written]...There are some things in the Christian belief system that can only be "processed" in our heads by faith. Like in Hebrews 11 where it says by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. I don't have a problem with that - because of my initial belief [there is a God - it's the God of the Bible]...In my opinion, God created our brains and so appeals to our intellect. But also - I am just a creature I must accept the fact at times [like the Hebrews 11:3 reference] faith must take precedence over intellect...

That was an interesting site to visit...One of the first books I read as a kid was The Time Machine...Sometimes I wonder when I read the Book of Revelation - was that all a vision presented to John - or did God actually transport him to the end times?

Something I've been thinking about in regards to my initial post on this thread: How does this stuff on changing your mind relate to me dealing with other people...A lot of that How to Win Friends and Influence People stuff just turns me off - I think it's manipulative. I never was good at any sales job. But being a Christian I think there's a genuine need to find a way to get people to consider Christ...So what I'm thinking is that [in light of my gatekeeper in charge of Gardner's 7 mind-changing factors analogy] - I shouldn't try to sell someone on my idea. The best that I can do is sell them on the idea of investigating the merits of my idea. That puts them in control of the whole decision-making process - which in my opinion - is the way it should be.

Somebody better warn that poor Lady to watch out for certain people - or she might lose her title - - definitely don't drink the Kool Aid...That link worked for me - thanks for sharing that, Happyasaclam!

It can be a real downer thinking back on my TWI days about how much I cheated on my wife [oh boy!!! Tonto is saying "What?!?!?!"]. I poured so much of my time and energy into running classes, running twig or branch, being in a ministry coffee house band, working a regular paying job - there was very little left of me to share with Tonto...All that work - great for my ego, very self-centered, I looked very spiritual, super dedicated - totally ignoring the needs and responsibilities of my marriage...No one made me do any of those things - it falls back into my court - the sinful way I set priorities, or ignored one of the most important relationships in my life....Okay - right now I'm doing like Jimmy Swagg8rz, tears running down my cheeks - "I have sinned!!!!". The more I think of it - realistically I don't think I'd have had the time, energy or interest to commit adultery back then. Besides - I was already having an affair with an organization...

Reading some recent threads having a similar theme of the evil behavior of certain TWI leaders – I began reviewing a topic foreign to TWI that I "discovered" after leaving the organization. It's a small, three-letter word – "sin." Now before anyone gets their dander up and says, "Here comes the holier-than-thou-dude on his high horse – he needs a ladder to get on it 'cause he's short on love." So, let me explain a few things. In my opinion, I am the foremost authority – a veritable expert on the sin in my life. That gives me the right to talk about it. And second, in my opinion it's the number one culprit that screws with people's minds, attacks marriages, family, friends, careers and has often laid siege on many a Christian's relationship with God. And third – I believe it's a lot easier to be on the lookout for sin in my life then pretending I can scan the spiritual atmosphere from the bridge of the Star Ship Advanced Class 79 – "Captain, sensors do not indicate any devilish life forms are present." Where am I going with this? I don't know – maybe it's to clarify some things in my head about my TWI experience. Believe me I'm really not wanting to start another exposé on the sins of the board of trustees. It's more like an exposé on the cause of our own "spiritual dysfunction" while in TWI…Furthermore – I don't know how to express this delicate point to all who read this thread and respond – but I'll try. Threads that review the sins of TWI leadership are necessary and serve as a warning beacon [as in II Peter 2: 1-22]. They're like a field guide for snakes – the varieties, habitats, etc. This thread I was hoping to be more like a first aid kit for snakebites. In my opinion, TWI was weak on sin [softening it with "broken fellowship," a zillion teachings on you being righteous] – which became like a rampant virus infecting the way we function intellectually, emotionally, socially, etc. The following is from The Christian Counselor's Manual, by Jay E. Adams, co. 1973, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, excerpts from Chapter 14 Sin is the Problem: "…Counselors must become cognizant of the fundamental themes of sin. These fundamental themes are apparent in the account of the first sin recorded in Genesis 3…Fundamentally, the problem of the first sin amounted to this: Adam and Eve opted for the satisfaction of desire rather than for obedience to the commandment of God…All of the common themes of sin grow out of the desire-oriented life. A look at Genesis 3 discloses some of the basic themes and shows that: Adam and Eve sinned because they rejected the Word of God…in the last resort a rejection of God Himself…This rejection led to serious consequences…the judgment of God, the expulsion from the Garden, the curse of the ground, and the souring of interpersonal relationships between the man and his wife resulted. Within, man's nature was corrupted – with all of the baneful consequences that flow there from – and a bad conscience was felt in the painful emotional responses that it triggered. All of these results themselves became occasions for more sin. The intertwining complexities of tangled living began to be experienced. Sin brought complications to life. Man began to run, to hide and avoid, to cover up. The wicked flees when no man pursues. In a thousand ways counselees still do the same. The materials from which they weave their garments may be more sophisticated, but the Christian counselor knows to look for the fig leaves. He also sees innumerable patterns of avoidance. He may hide behind intellectualism rather than trees; but unless smitten by repentance he hides… …Man began to shift the blame: Adam said, "The woman that you gave me, she…" Eve declared, "The serpent, he…" Hardly any husband and wife whose marriage is on the rocks will be free from much blame shifting. They will blame one another, their circumstances, relatives, etc… Christian counselors must learn how to teach counselees to sort out the proper responsibilities each bears toward God and one another…"

Thanks, Goey - between you and Belle giving me some feedback - I wasn't aware of how bad it was. Tonto kept telling me "do it so people can read it" - I figured that meant bigger letters and more color!

To simplify things I would have to say doctrine influences behavior - in other words your belief system winds up being a guidance system or rules for faith and PRACTICE...And with that in mind I mentioned elsewhere [TWI's God thread] http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ndpost&p=218781 and http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ndpost&p=230239 of the similarities between VPW's theology and Gnosticism - the two main items being: holding knowledge in ultra high regard - to the point of reason being superior to faith [becoming super Bible jocks, proud, holding keys to the Word's interpretation, elitism] and separating matter and spirit - to the point where [since matter is evil and spirit can't sin] it didn't matter what you did in the flesh. If it catches on TWI could be referred to as the New Knoxville Gnostics.

LOL - That's funny but so fitting to post here, Allan - I know sometimes I tend to make situations and choices so complicated!!! ....... Love your post - thanks!!!!

Ok - Belle, see if my modified edit is any better.

I Love Bagpipes posted 4/16/2006 1:47 PM: "…In TWI, when I would hear people talk about "controlling your emotions" I would get VERY uptight, due to my emotional intensity…I may not be able to "control" my emotions, but I do control my behaviour…" That's a great post, Bagpipes – and on that note let me share some more relevant points from Competent to Counsel by Jay E. Adams, co. 1970, Baker Book House, pages 93 to 97 on Feelings and Behavior [boldfaced is my emphasis]: …One very pertinent passage is found in Genesis 4: 3-7. When God rejected Cain's offering [Abel in contrast to Cain brought the firstlings and fat, i.e., the best], Cain became angry and upset, "and his face fell" [vs. 5]. God then rhetorically asked Cain, "Why are you depressed?" and pointed the way toward overcoming it: "If you do right, will it [your face] not be lifted up?" Here, God sets forth the important principle that behavior determines feelings…People feel bad because of bad behavior; feelings flow from actions. This relationship between feelings and behavior is set forth clearly in Scripture. For example, Peter often pointed out that good living produces good feelings. In his first letter [3: 10], he quoted Psalm 34: 12, 13: Let him who means to love life, and see good days, refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking guile; and let him turn away from evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and pursue it. So to have good days, one must do good deeds…Peter speaks of the value of maintaining a good conscience, …so that in the thing which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame . A good conscience, according to Peter, depends upon good behavior…Conscience, which is man's ability to evaluate his own actions, activates unpleasant visceral and other bodily warning devices when he sins…These responses serve to alert him to the need for correction of the wrong behavior which the conscience would not tolerate. Bad feelings are the red light on the dashboard flashing out at us…Visceral discomfort is a God-structured means of telling human beings that they have violated their standards… What must one do to set his conscience at rest? The same thing he does to extinguish the red light on the dashboard. He doesn't take a hammer and smash the red light. Instead, he gets out and lifts the hood to see what is wrong. His problem is not with the light on the dashboard…The only satisfactory way to deal with conscience is to set it to rest by lifting the hood on the faulty behavior that activated the warning device… One physician recently wrote: Equally important is the belief that the patient can do something about his behavior and not merely talk about it. We've made life hard for ourselves and our patients by postulating that only a change in attitude or motivation will change behavior, overlooking the alternate possibility that changed behavior can change attitudes. [Marianne Eckardt, "Roundtable: Female Orgasm," Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality (April 1968), Vol. 2, No. 1, p. 46] She concluded: "Our psychology of introspection has too often neglected the psychology of doing." Something might be said about the human nervous system with respect to behavior and feeling in counseling. There are basically two sides to this system. One side is emotional and involuntary. The other side, associated with problem solving and voluntary action has to do with behavior…Emotional states flow secondarily from the behavior or the voluntary system…There is a close relationship or a connection between the two so that they can't really be divided as precisely as one might on paper. While there is no direct voluntary access to the emotions, the emotions can be reached indirectly through the voluntary system, because extensive fiber overlapping in the cortex allow unified correlation of the two systems. Thus actions affect emotions… And below some emotions captured by our Video-Emotion Corder: :( And this one below of T-Bone after reading so much:

Alfakat posted 4/17/2006 12:53 AM: "why give any heed to ignorant little children like these? they convict themseles out of their own mouth....defined biblically as fools they are not worth your breath or time. Thet were not there, they do not know and cannot say what is true and what is not. pathetic, really...do not engage them, you will receive more intelligent response from a mule or a jackass then from such as these. Ignore them, they will depart..." Well, Alfakat, when it comes right down to it – I totally agree with your sentiment – but there are specific reasons why I comment on such foolish posts - and it's usually NOT for the benefit of the one who posted it!…You may think very similarly as well. Sometimes I imagine certain people reading Grease Spot posts – they may be ex-TWI, current TWI, thinking about joining TWI…They may be registered patrons of the Café or a guest – that pours over the assorted threads…There's a lot of threads I personally enjoy to read – many I don't even make a contribution – some I make into a PDF file and save on my hard drive so I can review them off-line…So, at the risk of stating the obvious -when it comes to controversy, debates and open forums I often think about the benefit mentioned in a Milton quote: There is no learned man but will confess he hath much profited by reading controversies; his senses awakened, his judgment sharpened, and the truth which he holds more firmly established. In logic they teach that contraries laid together more evidently appear; and controversy being permitted, falsehood will appear more false, and truth more true.

Claude Davy posted at 4/15/2006 8:42 PM: "…All in all, regardless of some errors, he was brave enough to teach us more fundamental details in research and if you listen carefully to him, Alot of individuals who got hurt would have not been victims of misquided so called brothers and sisters of Christ. The comfort of being born again and the knowledge he taught us freed many of us from alot od Dogma Doctrine that would have eventually lead our minds into a religious type slavery!!...He taught alot of us to think for ourselves, challenge everything regardless of whom its coming from. Many have forgotton that teaching and by their own error they got lead astray into harmful manipulative selfserving causes that had nothing to do with what VPW stood for…" Ckmkeon posted 4/8/2006 10:20 PM: "While just being here a short time the persecution of VPW is high on this site. The only thing I can say is "IF" VPW did this to any of you what makes you better to persecute him. Wouldn't it be better to be bigger than that and just forgive. I am not sure how hard it is to forgive but bible tells us to forgive. So if I had to come on this site I would leave in one second if I was coming here for help. The reason I am posting is the continued hostile, anger, and hate toward VPW and everyone who believes in it. Will the persecution continue I am not sure. We shall see." Ckmkeon posted 4/16/2006 4:11 PM: "I would tell them that "if" they were really hurt, I mean really hurt. Then I would say go to God and find a way to forgive them. Holding a grudge this long would be unhealthy. Thank God for VPW." The Kool-Aid is strong with these two…That was my first thought after reading Claude Davy's and Ckmkeon's posts. But perhaps that's a rush to judgment on my part…Claude & CK, I have to give you two the benefit of a doubt here on a couple of things: 1. You don't understand what Grease Spot Café is all about. 2. You are not Way Corps and have not been privy to how TWI actually works behind the scenes. You may want to review the thread What do you think the purpose of GS is? under Grease Spot 101. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4732 I personally believe one of the many functions of Grease Spot Café is to serve as a warning beacon – very similar to what we find in the New Testament, verses that alert people to the dangers and signs of doctrinal and practical error promoted by religious leaders: Matthew 7:15-23; 15:1-20;Luke 11:39-54; I Timothy 4:1-5; II Peter 2:1-22 to cite just a few passages…Would you say Jesus was persecuting the Pharisees and teachers of the law in Matthew 15:1-20 when he countered their critique of his disciples breaking the tradition of the elders by not washing their hands before they ate? I'm hoping this nonsense will subside as you two get more familiar with WHAT ACTUALLY GOES ON HERE at Grease Spot Café. Have you looked up the word persecute? Webster defines it "to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict" and persecution is "the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook." This is an open forum – people come here to express their individual viewpoints, to share their story, to debate doctrinal and practical issues regarding TWI, and thousands of other topics in an open communication format…If you want to hear about some persecution – try talking to any Corps that left TWI. I'm one of them. The moment my viewpoint changed from TWI's I was marked and avoided. I still have the letters I got from my corps brothers and sisters – dialogues between me and them that were very frustrating – because I would argue a doctrinal or practical point where I think TWI needed to re-address and they would attack me – saying I've been seduced by devil spirits or flat-out possessed! This really goes to show you how strong groupthink can be! If everyone is thinking alike – is anyone thinking?!?!?! I think Ckmkeon's thread What happened to the Word? should really be titled What happened to thinking? I'd like to mention a few things about another word thrown around – forgiveness. What is the point of forgiveness? The goal of forgiveness is reconciliation. Bringing two parties back together – a sinner back to God or two believers reconciling differences. Hmmmmm – do you think there should be willingness on the part of both parties? Duh – yeah!!!...Ck, I noticed you're real big on the word "if" – as seen in the above posts – a pivotal word in Luke 17: 3,4 as well, where Jesus is speaking of a brother that sins, "…if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." In my opinion – it is therefore unbiblical to demand an offended believer to forgive someone if they have not repented – made no effort to come back to the offended party to express repentance or ask forgiveness. Have you read a thread I started Why you can't sweep it under the Carpet – it's under About the Way. It sort of gets into the same thing – the ball is really in TWI's court – and they do NOTHING! http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=9344 In my opinion, you are at a disadvantage in trying to assess what went on in the crisis time period following Passing of the Patriarch reading to the Corps. Ever wonder why a lot of Corps left over a brief span of time? Again, this is just my theory – but TWI has a centralized form of government – instead of Christ being the head of the church – the board of trustees are the head – directing the doctrinal and practical flow of things, establishing public opinion, and setting priorities and agendas. When Patriarch was read – confusion and disarray overwhelmed all levels of leadership even at the board of trustee level. People aren't robots – without domineering leadership being very directive – people tended to operate in a more autonomous mode [maybe even thinking for themselves]. This theory is re-enforced when I think of my own experience in leaving TWI in 1986 and eventually coming to Grease Spot Café in 2006. I read a lot of books, did a lot of Bible studies – but really didn't have much social contact with any ex-TWI folk. By the time I got to Grease Spot I found it re-assuring [and even humorous] that a lot of the Café patrons have come to very similar conclusions to what I figured out…

Wow, Penguin - you have hit the nail on the head for me!!!!!!!!!!! TWI usually emphasized the epistles addressed to us [their hyper-dispensationalism]. After I left TWI I got back into reading the entire Bible - one of my favorite books now is the Gospel of John...I found - just like you did - the more I look at his life and what he did for me - the more I find myself motivated to follow him. Thanks again, Penguin for a great post!!!!!!!

In my continuing effort to analyze the life out of something [LOL ] – I've been doing some thinking [oiiii – again with the thinking - LOL ] about how we change our minds and the role of emotions…I dusted off my Christian Counseling books and reviewed some things on emotions. I thought I'd share them here as a springboard for discussion. The following is from Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology & Counseling, Second Edition, Edited by David G. Benner & Peter C Hill, co. 1999, Baker Books, pages 392 through 396 [boldfaced is my emphasis]: Emotion. The word is derived from the Latin emovare, meaning to move. Affect, passion, and mood are other words that describe some aspect of the same phenomenon. In common usage emotion refers primarily to perceived feelings, while affect includes the drives that are presumed to generate both conscious and unconscious feelings. Passion is intense emotion, and mood is emotion of long duration…W. James in The Principles of Psychology [1890] was correct when he stated that emotions are reflexes. They arise as a result of stimuli that have symbolic meaning to the individual…The stimuli that arise as a result of the behavior of other people have both cognitive and emotional qualities… …Human beings have always desired rationality; however, they generally do not behave rationally but are driven by emotions. Ideas are of no value until emotions are attached to them, since the emotion provides the force for action. It is imperative, then that as one accumulates a body of knowledge, appropriate emotions be cathected [invested with mental or emotional energy] to ideas in order that they may have value. Values are ideas with cathected emotions that make a favorable difference in life…Thinking and feeling are inextricably mixed. Thus it is not surprising that all mental disorder is characterized by disturbances in both…The personality disorders represent dysfunctional exaggerations of normal personality attributes. Only when personality traits are inflexible and maladaptive and cause either significant impairment in social or occupational functioning or subjective distress do they constitute personality disorder… …In contrast to the Stoics, who viewed emotion as irrational, and the Epicureans, who acquiesced to the inevitability of emotion, Jesus realistically faced the role of emotion in human life and provided guidelines to control negative and facilitate positive emotion…The Bible has many instructions that help persons to cognitively structure their emotional life. It was noted earlier that emotion does not exist by itself but is always attached to ideas… From Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling, General Editor Rodney J. Hunter, co. 1990 Abingdon Press, pages 351 and 352: Emotion. At the level of conscious experience, a state of feeling that has motivational and cue-producing properties that organize and guide cognition and action…There is substantial empirical support for the assumption that each of the emotions has adaptive, motivational functions. For example, interest motivates learning, exploration, and creative endeavors. Joy facilitates social interaction and alleviates stress. Anger mobilizes energy for action against frustrating barriers which may include insults to personal integrity and oppression. Shame motivates development of skills and competencies that strengthen the self and make it less vulnerable to humiliation. Guilt, believed by some to be a fundamental emotion despite its lack of a characteristic expression, fosters reparation and the development of a sense of personal responsibility… And finally [yes finally I mean it!]from The Christian Counselor's Manual by Jay E. Adams, co. 1973, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Chapter 13 The Language of Emotion and Action, pages 112 through 116: …The terms attitude, feeling, and behavior must be distinguished. They are easily confused because at points they converge or overlap and because they are all integrally related…The word feeling refers to the perception of a bodily state as pleasant or unpleasant…It is true that feelings may differ in intensity or kind, but fundamentally there are two categories into which all may be classified: good or bad. Visceral, muscular, galvanic, or other emotional responses of the body are responses to judgments made about the environment and oneself. These judgments trigger body chemistry to orient the body in a particular direction to meet a specific situation…An attitude is that combination of presuppositions, beliefs, convictions, and opinions that make up one's habitual stance at any given time toward a subject, person, or act. It is a mindset that strongly influences behavior. In counseling, attitudes may be attacked and changed more directly than feelings, which, in most instances can be altered only indirectly through change of attitude and action [behavior]…In its narrower sense, behavior must be distinguished from a larger global usage that is employed by many behaviorists. The term behavior is best used to describe those activities of a whole person [not a gland] that may be judged by the law of God. Behavior is responsible conduct… I'm Thelonious Bone, welcome to Café Talk – now discuss amongst yourselves…[and you thought there'd be a pop quiz afterwards].

ex70'shouston said "So tell me what I learned in The Way International?" Well, ex70, I can't answer that for you - but I'll mention a few things from my life and how it relates to your topic of how VPW and TWI changed me...I can sure get long-winded on that subject - but I'll do a Readers Digest version here...I think I was a "normal" [whatever that is] person going into TWI [with my own set of strengths, weaknesses, dysfunctionality, sins, etc.]. I got some good things and bad things out of TWI...I let myself succumb to the personality molding of the organization...I'm not a salesman [never did get many people to take PFAL], not a manager [ didn't like overseeing twigs, branches or areas]...I left in 86 - and sometimes it's a LOT of WORK to try to figure out who you really are - to wade through the mental baggage - and the doctrine - and the memories - and figure out what's what...Thinking back on all my experiences - there's two things that stick out: Christian Counseling and Systematic Theology. An area coordinator ran a seminar on Christian Counseling - turned us on to a neat author Jay E. Adams...I've got about 13 of his books. One of my favorites is More Than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling...So what I'm getting out of analyzing my TWI experience is what may be one of the actual roles God wants me to function in...I loved studying the Bible with a view to the big picture - how all aspects of doctrine related to each other - and how it should be applied in life...My fondest memories of "doing something for God" in my TWI days are one-on-one counseling situations. And believe me - I did not have a "holier-than-thou" attitude toward the other person. I always considered myself an expert on screwing things up - but humble enough to eventually come around to God's way of doing things...For me - it's always re-assuring when you talk to someone on a Tech Support Hot Line and they're honest and admit they did the same dumb thing you did - and they say "now here's how you fix it - I know - that's what I had to do." So, ex70 - I don't know where you wanted to go with this - don't know if my post is a de-railer or not...Sometimes I get tired of constantly focusing on all the crap of a certain organization - and just want to get on with my life...I figure I'm in the therapeutic phase of my life - probably be in it till I keel over - so what - I'm a lot better off now then when I was in TWI...

I thought by this time you'd be spiritually mature enough that you wouldn't need a kiss -

Actually, CK - I was asking if you've ever heard of critical thinking or creative thinking? T-Bone asked: "How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented..." ckmkeon replied: "By revelation by either God or the Devil" CK, please provide scriptural references for the above statement in green.

What if a student winds up being smarter than the teacher or discovers errors in the teacher's doctrine? How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented - if people can't go beyond what they're taught? Who came up with that slogan anyway? Well...I bet it was from someone who never had an original thought... In my opinion - the type of person who would believe that slogan is someone that doesn't think for themselves.

I talked about this on the Becoming Agnostic thread...And it's my opinion - but I figure it's relevant here so bears repeating. Luke 13: 1- 5 is an account of some people asking Jesus about the Galileans that Pilate had killed [and it appears they were killed during their sacrifices or worship] judging by Jesus' response it appears they were basically asking why that happened. Jesus even brings up another tradegy of a tower in Siloam falling on 18 people. But I don't see that Jesus tells why these awful things happened. He goes on to say "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." I tend to think the Bible gives us a lot more info on WHAT God wants us to do - rather then WHY things happen...We live in a fallen world - it's not the way things are always going to be.

We're all human - fallen creatures actually - we all sin. But it makes you stop and wonder - when you look at how the Bible addresses people in different places. In my opinion God calls things as they really are - so you'll see an epistle addressed to "the faithful" for example. What about when God labels people as murderers, adulterers, liars, etc.? I think it's when a particular sin has gotten to the point of LIFE-DOMINATING - that's what you've become! A LIFE-DOMINATING sin is going to pollute, infect, mar, screw up, destroy, yada yada yada everything in that person's life - cause that's the nature of sin [just like a computer virus - there's all kinds some more harmful than others]! In Ephesians it says let him that stole steal no more. When is a thief NOT a thief? When he's not stealing? No - because he may be just sleeping or awaiting an opportune moment. A thief is no longer a thief when he becomes something else! As Ephesians further implies he changes from a thief to an honest worker - and instead of stealing he now gives.