Twinky

I think OS is going for the record of how many posts can made in the shortest time.

So much protest at homosexuals... Parades round RoA carrying placards. Escalating some years later to huuuuge long screaming sessions during Corps Nights. Accusations about anyone kicked out or M&A'd that they were homos or homo-sympathisers or homo-fantasisers. And all because ... the lady loves ... Rosalie. Well, dunno about love but certainly got physical with. And since LCM couldn't scream at D0nna or control her as he wished, he took it out on everyone else. Like kicking the cat when you have a bad day at work. Meeooowww! LCM forgot - that his own behavior assaulting women might have provoked D0nna's disgust with him and her turning to another (who knows the real ins and outs of R&D?, not that that's the subject here). He also forgot that God loves us ALL and that Jesus died for us ALL including homosexuals. And adultery is an offence against God just the same as homosexuality is an offence against God.

"Toxic Faith" is good to read, too. I never read a Bible for many years. And then couldn't pick up a KJV. I liked The Message because it's so radically different. I read all sorts of versions now. Enjoy your friends and family, who love and support you despite your Way-weirdness. Don't "judge" them for what they do and think all their actions are devil-spirit inspired. (You'll get yourself really confused.) Read a lot here, and think about the discussions. You will be very surprised at the range of views. Shocked, maybe, about how far some of us have "strayed from the truth." ...No, we haven't, we're just trying to make sense of things. Be patient with yourself. God loves YOU. He will never leave or abandon you. Jesus loves YOU (you might have some difficulty with coming to terms with "Jesus" since he was hardly mentioned in TWI) and he won't abandon you either. Be angry. Be joyful. Be thankful. Be yourself. Be your real self.

Amazing, OldSkool. There was a high attrition rate from my Corps, but we started out very much bigger. I thought at the time that throwing someone out every so often, together with the culture of fear (disguised as doing one's best for God), was designed to keep the remainder in line, lest we too get thrown out. With so few in your Corps, they hadn't the disposable bodies to try that tactic.

"Oirish git"? Poly, that's not very polite of you. Try something else. "Fekking eejit" for example. Or, "Feisigh do thoin fein" which apparently means "F-ck your own donkey (?)." (You might need another word there .) I liked the Oirish git. But that was then. Now, you tell me, he has gone the way of other TWI leadership. (edited cos the fonts went funny)

I never understood that reference, anyway. In view of what I know now, it might have been better to refer to Solomon, who asked for a wise and discerning heart. He did some good things and judged wisely - in the beginning. And also, kept harems of women. Any woman he wanted, he took. (Sound familiar?) If you're looking for "heart" how about Josiah? He cleaned the place up really well: 2 Kings 23:25 Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did--with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses. The "God's own heart" reference isn't from the OT at all but from Acts, where Paul is presenting the Lord Jesus Christ to the people of Antioch: 16 Then Paul stood up , and beckoning with his hand said , Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience . 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot . 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony , and said , I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart,which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said , Whom think ye that I am ? I am not he. But, behold , there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose . 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent . 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not , nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain . 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings , how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise , I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep , and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again , saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish : for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up , many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. What's the context? The lineage of Jesus - not the outstandingness of David. Why does Paul mention David? Because David was such a significant builder and establisher of the state of Israel. And now, Paul is preaching about Jesus and about who is the true Israel. David was a man after God's heart at the time he was selected to be king. God later barred him from significant privileges, like actually building the temple, because of David's own lifestyle ("man of blood"). Even though David was doing what he thought was right - attacking the enemies of Israel, fighting "Godly" wars. Right? Maybe. After God's heart? Who knows; David wasn't exactly blessing those who persecuted him - or persecuted Israel. <a name="47">

The "no gifts/bribe" policy came in when (field) people were offered old computers, sofas, old cars, etc, by members of their twigs, businesses they'd worked with, etc. It was aimed more at non-TWI people giving things to (in particular) field Corps. Very unfair, because field Corps didn't have a lot of income to begin with. They had to be self-funding (before field Corps were taken onto the staff payroll...and shortly thereafter all taken off the staff payroll, LOL), but because of TWI responsibilities found it difficult to maintain well-paying jobs. They were not allowed to take full time jobs (why would you want to pursue a career, when the greatness of God's Word was at stake? And to pursue a career that the WC person might have had before WC was seen as "returning to vomit"). Very unfair, because only a few years earlier, being given equipment would have been seen as "God blessing you" and providing for your needs. Very unfair, because this "no gifts" policy was to show those outside the Way that their contributions were not required. We're not beggars, you know! But in fact ... we were. It was in this context that the bribes/devil spirits thing came in - in context of gifts (of physical things) from non-Wayfers to field Corps. And so, instead of letting people just give where they had what would ease another's need, the giving from sheer generosity of heart was actively discouraged. As to gifts for leaders, class coordinators, etc, from grateful Wayfers, that didn't come in till a couple of years later. And then LCM said that it was because gifts were getting too extravagant and it wasn't appropriate. (It sounded good at the time.) I've an idea that a limit on the value of such gifts was set. But who was it that was getting the gifts? You know it! Probably because his closet was full of fancy suits or his garage full of posh cars. Unfair, because monetary gifts were still given to LCM, as a thank you even for taped classes, where his physical presence was never seen. Not to the coordinators of those classes, mind, who had done all the work.

Nothing new under the sun: The Fireman

What About It, welcome to the Cafe. We're nearly all TWI-survivors here and even those who aren't survivors have been affected in some way. This is a safe space for you to explore new ideas and you may find your ideas change quite a lot over the next few months. Your opinion will be respected, if you present it respectfully (it's even okay to be angry!). You may find threads on a lot of topics that you have questions about. The search function at the top of the page might help you locate those threads. Useful articles can be accessed via the front page, too. Prepare to be shocked at what you read. Life's great! Confusing, but definitely better out than in. For the moment, have a cup of coffee and relax a while.

sorry wrong location for post

OldSkool - how many people in your Corps group a) started? b) graduated? c) were still with TWI when you left (as far as you know)? d) are still (as far as you know) with TWI today? - this one might be a bit hard to answer, LOL

Sometimes it's easy to BE right...in your actions. But to DO right isn't always so easy. So it's your right of way at the road junction. What do you do? Charge across anyway, and mow down the little old lady with the walking stick? It's your right of way at the next junction. What do you do? Shoot across and get hit by a red-light jumper? Sue him from your hospital bed? Your son went out and got drunk. What do you do? Thrash him halfway to death, in hopes he won't do it again? You find out a stash of drugs in your other son's room. What do you do? Lecture him? Throw him out? Confine him to the home? Your daughter comes home and tells you she's four months pregnant. What do you do? Turn her out into the street? Confine her to the home? Ban her from seeing the father again? Make her marry the father? Your spouse is having an affair. What do you do? Kick him/her out, get a divorce? Sit down together to consider where your marriage is unsatisfactory and whether it's repairable? Some of the alternatives are "justifiable" but they aren't necessarily right. You can "do" all the right things and indeed there are many records in the Bible of where people did the right actions - but their heart was "far from" God. If you're not being loving (however you interpret that), can you even be right, in God's eyes?

Wouldn't that be, God bless you REdundantly ?

Yeah, they kicked me out too. And I'm grateful (now). It was dreadful at the time and for years afterwards. Unlikely, however, that I would have left of my own accord. I'd well and truly burned my bridges and there was nowhere else for me to go (as I thought). Thank God He has bigger and better plans for us all than toilet cleaning, the dish room, grovelling in chicken sh it,and generally wasting the abilities He gave us.

Now this is just promoting someone else's agenda. Why bring Christianity into it? It doesn't need to be there, and it doesn't add anything, except to promote someone else's agenda. It's bringing one aspect of Christianity into an argument, without bringing the whole spectrum of Christianity into it - like our service to fellow men. Did not Christ himself lay aside his individuality? Phil 2:7 But [Christ] made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant... Doesn't sound like too much "individualism" there. ...the belief that it is desirable that men should be free to develop their own individual gifts and bents... Is this a "Christian belief"? (Or is Christian belief in the redemptive power of the resurrection, given to all who believe - not just to individuals, LOL?) Or is it taking the phrase "spiritual gifts" which are for the aid to the congregation, way out of context? So what's his agenda, the author of this quote? The road to the control of others is well-worn and is based on creating fear in, then dependence of, the "controllee." And it's been around as long as civilization. Wierwille probably learned the basics at the hands of his belt-wielding father, from reports elsewhere at the Cafe.

Ca-FART-ic...very funny, unless you're just blowing hot air again... There are ways of saying that are not with words. Who doesn't know That Look that mama gave them when they were a little kid? Or the Blank Face or the Silent Treatment when a disapproved of action was suggested? Or the Shrug that (by interpretation) means "have it your own way; there'll be trouble"? Or the disingenuous comment that means the opposite of what it says? There are many things that TWI never SAID - explicitly - but they said 'em, just the same.

The first link is very much TWI teaching on "stayed mind." Was it in PFAL? "Mind, come back here!" whenever your mind wandered from what you were supposed to be concentrating on. Accompanied by a hand gesture summoning the mind back and pointing firmly at one's feet. That probably got dropped in the WAP class (which was never inflicted on me) and later foundational-type classes. Stayed mind used to be a regular feature of SNS - just in case people decided to look beyond the walls of Zion. EW Kenyon was also talked about, a little, when I was first in. He may have been mentioned in PFAL in an attempt to give credibility to VPW. Maybe in some later classes. (Dunno, but I never heard of him before getting involved with TWI.) Some, many, aspects of this make it into PFAL but possibly not via Kenyon so much as via the classes that VPW ripped off so as to form PFAL. This all ties in very much with the "law of believing," upon which topic much, very much, has been written in these forums. There is also a link on the front page to an article by John Juedes, who has done a lot to debunk some TWI doctrines. John Juedes article

Pretty much everyone is welcome here - whether or not they have a TWI affiliation, and regardless of the type of affiliation - but those who abuse, bully or vilify other posters are not welcome and might be put on moderation. And that's regardless of how long they have been posters here. Yu might ask yourself: Do I want to learn from the people here? Or do I expect them all to learn from me? Because we've mostly all had a kicking and are finding peace with God as He works in our hearts. Not as other people "command" us to allow Him to work in our hearts.

What do you want to do?

I don't know that they all start out as scams, Gen-2. Some might genuinely start out well-meaning. And then careful and appropriate guidance becomes more and more control of people's lives, with the "big stick" of not being pleasing to God. (Is there a "latent bully" in all of us?) And these books of "special knowledge" or "secrets of life" become a way of extending the bullying, the control. Especially where sold from some private location (our church/HQ/private publishing company). Don't get me wrong, I'm not against book authors, people who genuinely do have some knowledge, writing about their understanding. Nor am I against them selling their books. But who or what is the focus? How exclusive is the target market? Who ends up getting empowered - the reader, who learns how to live better/gains more understanding of the topic? Or the author, who gains/cements an element of control? And who gets the money? And what becomes of it? I'm thinking of people like Yancey, Swindoll - even Johnson & VanVonderen, who wrote The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, that has been so helpful to people here at the Cafe. These people - especially the last-named pair - seem the antithesis of cult leaders. The instruction in 1 Timothy 3 (about selection of church overseers) springs to mind. :4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; :5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) How do the wannabe's kids present? >Are they quiet, because cowed into submission? >Or are they quiet, because they are polite and respectfully brought up? >Are the wannabe's kids able to express an opinion? >Or are they required to be seen and not heard? >Are the kids treated as individuals, with their own personalities? >Or are they treated like clones, one-size-fits-all? >Are the kids' abilities acknowledged and encouraged? >Or are they forced to give up things they enjoy and do things they dislike? ...Cos that's how the wannabe leader will treat his following. That's how his "special knowledge" really plays out.

Sad, Waysider, but it could have been worse. You could've ended up in Way Productions, even starring in The Soup...

The least common denominator? Gullibility.

This might sound a bit familiar: but "what's the heart behind it?" If genuinely to help and genuinely to instruct and explore the Bible and its application, does that make it a splinter? Especially if, as one explores, one allows one's mind to change? And what is the attitude towards others of the wider Christian body? If it's to show off one's own views/knowledge and appear more superior to some people, that's different, isn't it? And what about ... money? Is it demanded - offered - accepted? What is any money used for? Others above have commented on the way the group treats people. So important! Does it compel, or does it guide and exhort? Is there a sense of guilt in doing or not doing something? Or is genuine choice acceptable? Are participants free to leave if they want? Or are their activities subtly or not so subtly controlled (ie, beyond the bounds of reasonable)? There were some genuinely good people in TWI, often trained as Corps, but without the meanness some here have endured. If those people start fellowships in their homes, are those groups "splinters" or are they just - church in the home?

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular. I'm just fed up with the number of people claiming "special" knowledge that they want to sell to you. Which is such a contrast between (if you are Christian) what Jesus taught. But "everyone hath a psalm" and they want you to pay them to sing it to you. Instead of doing it for the joy of doing it. What's with all this ego that makes that person's knowledge so very special? It's not passion to share a better way that motivates them. It's passion for money. Passion for accolades. Passion for - themselves. Let's write a book. Chronicles of Grease Spot Cafe, maybe?

Hey your poster even has "Lions" in the top left corner. For the throwing to of Christians, no doubt.