Twinky

Am hoping that this thread will prove useful to those who are newly out or still recovering. Please keep ideas flowing. Right now, for me, at this stage having a non-Christian friend who is very intelligent and quick thinking is helping my critical thinking skills. My friend is respectful of my beliefs but his pithy summations of something I say make me cast around in my mind to think, "Why did I say/think that? Iron sharpens iron. This wouldn't have helped me at all when I first got out; I would (and did) just trot out the "party line." I needed to see the double standards of TWI first. (Thanks to all at the Cafe!!) Interesting that Christian friends don't bother to challenge anything, assuming that I believe the same as them; or they just give me an odd or pitying look. They never ask why I might believe something different from them and they don't want to explore their own beliefs. It's that wishy-washy leave-'em-alone attitude that caused me to receive PFAL with such interest.

Geisha, are you speaking some other language??? I missed a lot of that, too. Berlin wall coming down? Scarce a mention of it! Learned of that with some surprise years later...am still not sure it has really happened. There was a brief mention in a Corps Night teaching - along the lines of, "It's devil spirits messing about. You know they only let go of that because there is something worse coming along." Maybe that was "meaningful" to field Corps, but to in-the-dark in-rez Corps it was bewildering. But Mt St Helen's blowing - that was a biggie, because LCM went there and prophesied to the women at a branch meeting thereabouts that their unborn babies would all be okay. He had revelation to say that none of them would suffer as a result of the eruption. We also watched a MJ video: "You can always learn from something done well. He can really dance!" (from one who certainly could not dance)

T-Bone, you do make me laugh! Academically appropriate classes...LOL Redemption for the German shepherd dog...LOL big time As to the CV hole - being as I live overseas, I can get away with that...sort of. Got to account for that time out somehow. Ah! I know! Call it intensive training in sales techniques. Seriously: my research paper wasn't on anything that you might find in PFAL. In fact, my choice (which was on something from that) was specifically overridden by you-know-who. That's why I think he was trying to pick my brains.

That would have been interesting, TheHighWay. But no... J0hn S was long gone. I used to enjoy W@lter C-mmins's articles in GMIR in the Way mag ... but they disappeared without explanation. Think he would have been an interesting teacher too. We never produced any written work or had any private study checked, unless it was to see that we had all learned our retemories and such like. The best bit for me was producing my research paper. I was given a topic by LCM and pursued it with diligence. It became really interesting, but probably not at all in the way he'd intended. I knew what he intended: but I ended up all over the OT and learned some really great stuff about what it meant to be a real leader, shepherd, carer, pastor, of God's people; and very specifically about leaders "walking the talk." The paper was quite widely read, apparently; several people who I hardly knew came up to me and said it was a good paper and they liked the bit about ... or ... (How had they seen it? Who'd showed them?) Thinking back, though, I don't recall any acknowledgment from LCM. Certainly no "bless note" or written acknowledgment. Was just too busy to think about it at the time. Perhaps he was too busy too, with preparations for RoA, but hey, who was in charge of the timetable for getting everything done? Never got it back, either. The thought just occurred to me that perhaps LCM never even read it, just hived the task off onto someone else to let him know if it seemed any good. But he personally had given me this topic and he knew my secular background. At the time, I'd wondered how much of what it might have ended up in some of his own supposed research, had I said what he'd wanted. Since earlier Corps don't seem keen on posting about what their "curriculum" was, is anybody willing to tell what their research paper topic was?

Loss or dulling of critical thinking skills is a recurrent theme in a number of threads. And in reading post-cult self-help type of material, it’s apparently widespread among cult survivors. The cult perpetrators reel victims in little by little, eroding their thinking skills and replacing them with cult dogma, us-and-them thinking, undermining outside sources, and gradually making the cult itself the sole point of reference – even, as in TWI’s case, the sole point of reference in interpretation of the Bible. We learned to ignore the “red flags” that would signal danger to our critical thinking skills and we learned to ignore any kind of intuition, previous thinking, boundaries taught to us by parents or by society. The secular knowledge we had acquired, some by diligent study over many years, was mocked or considered worthless. Some of us had professional skills – I know my profession was frequently derided. There were times where, if I showed any thinking that might be based on previous life or professional experiences, I would be beaten down by those who had no training or knowledge in this particular area. Many of us here can tell of similar experiences. There are examples too numerous and too silly to mention. I trained in a profession that requires quite carefully honed critical thinking skills, an ability to read and interpret, an ability to see through lies and deceptions and to ask the right questions. I knew what was in my expertise, and when to refer to others who were specialists. Why did I not see through the TWI bs? I interpreted the “red flags” as mistakes by others, or inexperience; I interpreted the mistakes in PFAL as being “slips of the tongue” in a live film recording (since some of them don’t appear in the orange book); I interpreted differences from mainstream Christian dogma as being indicative of better research (I was never convinced, for example, about the trinity; and I’d already wondered way before ever hearing of TWI why Jesus was crucified “among” not “between” the others). And mostly I really wanted to know more about God and the Bible and TWI/PFAL seemed to be an authoritative source; where I could think that the “red flags” were simply my own inexperience in this area. It is a pleasure to be “out” and able to think again, to consider other points of view, to re-think TWI dogma in the light of other Christian thinking, in the light of secular thinking … to just think. To engage brain. I feel I am still a long way from being as sharp as I used to be (age, maybe?? LOL). I’m just wondering what people have found most helpful in recovering those critical thinking skills.  Partly it’s learning of the errors in PFAL and TWI dogma.  Partly it’s reading books like “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” and other self-help literature.  Partly it’s considering other Christian (and other) points of view.  Partly it’s discussing and reasoning with non-Christians the things that don’t seem to make sense from a non-Christian point of view – in fact, asking those questions that I’d once asked but never got answers for.  And, of course, considering other points of view right here at the Café. Because I know to some extent where you’ve come from, and yet you may now think something different. I’m not asking for self-help or what you’ve done since you got out; I’m asking what helps you develop your critical thinking skills. How have you tuned your bs antennae?

Even when I was "in" most folk in TWI had no concept of International Outreach. They had no idea where most other countries were. There was a map of the world inset into some oval table in the Auditorium - with some countries not even shown even though there was space to put them. Hello, hello! There is a world outside the USA, and it's not just for dropping bombs on, either. The outreach model demanded by TWI didn't really work overseas (come to that, it wasn't so effective in the US, either). Door-knockers and people accosting potential recruits in shopping malls: not quite the European thing. Most of Europe was "written off" by VPW and/or LCM as being "spiritually dark" because they weren't interested in the high-pressure sales techniques used by TWI. Guam was counted as an international outreach country but it was really only noticed because US personnel were stationed over there. Anyway, back to the point: there are still some Way-affiliated fellowships in other countries. There is also a not insignificant number of splinter groups led by WC or sometimes not even WC. There's quite a brisk "outreach" in hooking these up together, but as individual fellowships or ministries. There is a surprisingly high number of Wayfers or exWayfers in most European countries; also in some African countries. Some Europeans have set up fellowships or ministries. Some have gone back to mainstream churches.

Thanks, Chockfull and TheHighWay for your responses. I'd forgotten about the U/Life series. They weren't available when I was there. There may have been copies in the Library; but we were sooooo busy that there really wasn't time for that sort of private study. Chockfull: Qualified teachers? Curriculum? Syllabus? Graded? Must have abandoned any idea of that when they couldn't get accredited. Of course, they couldn't get accredited because they didn't teach mainstream stuff. So it was said (… not because of the quality of the teaching or narrowness of the training program). Yeah, public speaking. That was what they called the little presentation of What God Has Done for Me. Thirty hours???? What a terrifying thought. Sounds to me more like 30 hours grubbing around in one's past, finding new buttons to press, wounded bits that are still healing, old childhood abuses that should never see the light of day again.There was often talk of Marine Corps like dedication, jump when I say jump, and of course the first term till December was called "boot camp" with maximum restrictions and minimal personal freedom. We accepted that; we were training and learning to discipline ourselves. Except that in January we were still not good enough and so boot camp was extended…and extended… more and more strictly. Until things changed in the immediate preparations for RoA. For both years in rez. TheHighWay: You were in 4 years earlier than me. Sounds like you got a bit more interesting "training" (such as it was worth) and you had the benefit of the College program. There might have been something interesting in the College program stuff you took; it wasn't available when I was in. If they could have run even taped classes along these lines, we might have been better educated. But no doubt all the classes were taught by "cop-outs" whose work could not stand in the fierce fire of TWI zeal. I got the same stuff two years running. The "feel" for me was oppression followed by more oppression. Right with you there, THW.Anything earlier Corps told me about the training was based on early years in Emporia, and they seemed to have genuinely learned helpful stuff (history, background, some Greek) and seemed deeply well-rounded and thoughtful people about God and his ways. Or perhaps I just met some great people. I think they'd given up the sham of educating us by the time I got there. Early Corps, about 8 to 15, anything to add?

Scary stuff, but interesting to see the horrendous parallels to the initiates of TWI. Interesting when he started talking about the sexual manipulation (about 30 mins in) and how it was a tool to control individuals. "When you give up your sexuality and let them control that, they've really got you" (paraphrase). He doesn't talk of a policy of "M&A" and only touched briefly on "shunning" but that may be because he managed to leave voluntarily. His story on his own website here: http://windofchanges.org/Husbandsperspective.html

Congratulations!!! Best wishes to you all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex Difficult for those suffering this condition. The way the athlete Caster Semenya has been treated is humiliating and if she didn't have difficulties before, she's likely to have them now. But what do you make of those who claim to be" trapped in the body of the 'opposite' sex"? (More usually men who prefer to live as women). If they do go through with "gender reassignment" surgery, do you think that they are then of the "new" sex? Is such a surgery-adapted [male] now really a [female]? If they don't have surgery but just dress up in the attire more usually adopted by the "other" sex and give themselves a new name (Jack now calls himself Jill), do you call them by their "new" gender identity (she) or their previous one (he)?

T&0...how come you have a current Way mag? You subscribe to it? Oops... just re-read your post ... your friend has a copy. Your friend subscribes?

Let's not overlook that small children were beaten with wooden spoons. There are enough threads here about the violence inflicted on little kids: beaten till badly bruised; beaten till spoons broke across their little bodies. After that came the systematic beating down of women, claiming that they must be subject to their husbands. This involved severe emotional violence, bullying and intimidation. Physical violence was also perpetrated against some women by their husbands. If women dared to complain to Branch or Limb Coords, who was supported? The men! Who was told to be more submissive and not provoke fights? The women! Therefore, it seems clear that TWI did promote violence. Nothing was done to rein in violent males; on the contrary, violent males were encouraged; were told to exercise authority within their own households. Two Way Corps women of my close acquaintance came home to find their husbands had guns ready which they threatened to use. Would those men have done that? Dunno, the women fled, not wishing to find out, but believing so because of the level of physical violence already shown to them and the lack of support from "higher" leadership. The incidents were years and hundreds of miles apart. It wasn't one cranky individual LC who was endorsing violent behavior.

Not to mention the ego of having their names put in some book according to the donations that people gave. The aud was built before I got heavily involved, but when I learned of the book, what sprang to mind was this: Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. I'm not knocking those who did give. It's probably because I heard about the book from cgeer, who during an SNS "let it slip" that he had been among the first to sign, because he had donated over $5,000. And at the time I was already appalled by the man's outrageous arrogance. I also wondered about the people who had contributed towards the tabernacle (Ex 35, 36 and thereabouts), only few of whom are named but the emphasis is on the willing donation; of the provision God himself had made beforehand, when the people fleeing Egypt had "borrowed" jewellery from their neighbors. ...some more of those red flags that got ignored Having said that, it was a beautiful auditorium / theatre / show place. And the seats were a jolly sight more comfortable than a hard church pew.

It would be interesting to consider what was “taught “ when and by whom. I’ve talked with WC who were there a decade or more before me and it seems they might have actually done something worthwhile. Certainly, they did a more academic sort of training than I did. But by my time, the fog years had been and gone, and so many, who may well have been scholars, left. My WC study day was like this: 8-12 work or private study 1-5 private study or work 7-10 class – note that this comes after a half-day’s work, and also after physical exercise first thing in the morning (running, starting at 5.50am) or some time during the private study time (wood chopping)) What did my Corps do, for its classes? As best I can remember, stuff like this. I don’t have my class notes or any other notes that I made except for a few of my journals, which I can hardly bear to look at.  First thing was to watch all the FNC, INT and ADV class videos. Later, we watched other videos of other TWI classes or from RoA.  Everyone gave a 5 minute talk about something that we were skilled in  Learned to make a succinct introduction/presentation about what God did for us (so that we were always ready to introduce God into any conversation)  Watched a series of videos about the Renaissance (so that we could talk as if we had some knowledge) – they might have been made by the BBC but were old and dated when they were shown to us  Watched a Martin Luther video  Watched VP & Me (LCM’s video)  Did some scraps of Greek (mostly about prepositions)  Did some scraps of English grammar (the sort of stuff I'd learned by about age 7)  Learned to floss our teeth and wipe our bottoms (yes, really)  Song leading, TWI style  How to introduce a PFAL FNC class  Lightbearers (two weeks)  Firearms safety  The Three Rs of raising children  Put on lots of events (when believers from the field would come in, for classes or events) We DID NOT do anything along the following lines (unless it was in private study) - never even touched on  OT history  How the Bible was put together  Early church history (eg, events from first Pentecost to say Council of Nicea)  Anything to do with the Dead Sea scrolls  Greek, Hebrew or any other language at any coherent level  Biblical archaeology, geography or other cultural influences  Orientalisms  Consider the lives of any renowned historical Christian leaders, saints, missionaries or other examples (except for Martin Luther and his stand against the religious hierarchy of the day)  Consider the movement, lives or actions of any other living Christians (eg, founders of hospitals, missions, teachers)  Listen to guest speakers or anyone not TWI-trained  Debate or consider any other points of view  Consider people-handling skills  Counseling people in difficulty (other than Give them the Word!) – eg, how to present what we had to say in the best way it could be received  How to conduct a marriage, funeral, or other notable event  Write considered essays on any topic  Have any work examined, marked, or otherwise scrutinized  Receive any training that might develop any skills that we might have (eg, in research, homiletics) We DID sometimes learn something that might become a trade (eg, gardening, forklift truck, painter, handyman, office administration) and we learned a lot about getting ready for events. Some of us had pretty good skills or professional training when we went in. We were rarely allowed to use those skills or training, as this was “sense knowledge.” Basically, we were kept so busy “serving” that the lack of substance in the “classes” barely registered. I would be really really interested to know what was studied and to what sort of level, in the earlier Corps. If you are able to post, can you also give an idea of when you were in? Did any of it really help you, for yourself or to help others? (Eg, a more rounded appreciation of the Bible because you did Biblical history).

It's a hydra. Cut off one head, others grow in its place. Doubtful that there could ever be a "definitive list". Just note the bigger ones like CFFM and STFI. Look on CFFM for believer links. Follow them around. Note that this is a worldwide problem. You'd have to define what exactly is a splinter. How much of TWI doctrine would they have to keep - or reject?

I found this in Wikipedia as "Ezekiel's Vision" which is his idea of God in glory. The reference in my post above should have shown this pic.

Here's what I got from Google: http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=ezekiel+vision&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=QwK8SqSxIYOhjAetiezICw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1 I'd like to hear what Spectrum has to say, too.

An angel is a messenger. Okay. It might be a physical person - a human being. Sometimes, might be a spiritual being that takes on physical appearance. (There was a thread on angels a while back, in Open). Angels are of greater strength than humans, who are only earthen vessels. How could a human wrestle some spirit being that could "dematerialize" at any time? In the incident you're discussing, Dot? I dunno, it always bothered me, too. I'd tend to go with it being a vision of some sort. But why the injury? Did Jacob fall out of bed, LOL? Jacob and his family and flocks had traveled far and reasonably fast to be able to get to their destination. Jacob sent on his wives and families and remained alone. Perhaps age (for he was not a young man any more), his hard life as a herdsman, the journey, the tension, stress and fear of meeting his brother again (not to mention years of sleeping on hard surfaces out in the fields/pastures), etc, played on a weaker hip joint as he tossed and turned in his dream/vision. I'd go for a vision or restless night where he was making up his mind to face up to his brother and "claim" the stolen blessing as really his own. He knew he'd defrauded (tricked) the blessing out of his father by disguising himself as his brother, of whom he was plainly still fearful many years later. The "blessing" from the "angel" was when he finally made up his mind to go do it. Finally fully persuaded, as it were. Being a tricky and deceptive fellow, however, he could also have been faking the limp to try and get his brother's sympathy. Bride, did you forget these verses? Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.You also don't seem to have taken this into account: Ge 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though [= therefore not actually] I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.Consider also: Ge 19:15-17 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city So clearly these angels were running around in broad daylight. The morning "arose" and it took time to get Lot and his family moving.

Well...no BBQ this year. Obviously. Maybe next year. gc, am still hoping to wangle a visit down your way sometime soon. I'll PM you if it seems viable.

No idea how I came to miss this thread when it started, but glad to see it got bumped up... ...if one can be glad at reading such a sickening account of systematic abuse... I feel sick at reading Krys's account. And her son and DIL were only two of ... how many? How many did this happen to, over the years? Krys, thank you for sharing. Best wishes to your son in his new life. Your DIL too. She had some very difficult things in her head to deal with. She probably still does have. Seriously, does anyone think they would actually have shot anyone? Or was it just a scare tactic? It would be sooooo difficult to explain that away. There would be police involvement. Careful interrogation and statements. That would really blow the lid off the abuse.

$80K???? That would be living on a need basis, of course....

No, Groucho, but you can take things the wrong way if you wish. It's your right (or wrong). I think we can be likeminded that whatever TWI is preaching about it...is probably wrong. And that we would both like to rescue anyone still "in." If you want to debate anything else raised in your post - see you in Doctrinal.

"Making God our Sufficiency" I'd like to see the trustees putting this into practice. Out together as a WoW family in some small Alaskan or West Virginia or Mississippi town (somewhere a little remote or Bible belt). Let out to play with $200 in their pocket, an elderly car, and a small suitcase of clothes. No recourse to other funds. Required to find a 4 or 5 hour/day job within a week and their own house to live in. Given a target of getting 3 classes together in 6 months, with no-one dropping out. At the end of the six months, THEN they might have something to share, genuinely, about making God their sufficiency - in the physical sense.

I am not sure if it will help you, or not, to know that IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT but it was part of a pattern of behavior that was widely practiced in TWI. It was nothing that you did, or did not, do. Just that you are female. You have been a member for quite a while but have only recently posted, so no doubt you have read a lot of the miserable tales that have been posted here. Well done on finding the courage to start posting. It'll help you root out some of the damage that's been done in your head. Have a cup of coffee and something nice to eat.

As I am reading this, I note the following: 17 User(s) are reading this topic 1 members, 15 guests, 1 anonymous users The 1 member is me. Leaves me wondering if the 15 guests and the 1 anonymous member are covert Innies seeking a way out. Or maybe some of them are TWI "security". Hi, Mr Linder!