Twinky

A very brave woman. And a very sad young man. Foolish, but brave in his way. Knew he was doing wrong, and turned himself in. He doesn't need a prison sentence, he needs a job and helping to live a normal life in society. Enabled to go his way and sin no more.

Only thing that surprises me about the snippet Shellon posted is that it didn't get plagiarized and incorporated into TWI dogma... ...at least so far as is currently known. :o (We really need a barf icon in the emoticons)

When we all get to use metric measurements, will we have to call him Sir Isaac New-tonne?

Nice to see this is still getting some votes. It's good to see that less than 10% were actually thrown out. The other 90% have left voluntarily, even if that was accompanying someone who had been thrown out. I wonder if this group has had fewer problems with adjusting to the world outside: but I think we've nearly all had adjustment issues and not being thrown out is perhaps only one less thing to deal with. For some it was a close-run thing, whether they left or were ejected. From the more recent poll ("Who's here now?") it appears at present that we all got hooked in in the 70s or 80s, none earlier or later. Have the 90's and 00s not found the Cafe yet, or just not answered the poll?

Good for them. Excellent idea. There's a like organisation in the city where I live. Just a small fellowship. They have decided not to use a dedicated building. Apparently they meet as small groups in people's houses and then fairly often all the housegroups meet up in a pub or some such place. Or maybe in the park, in good weather. Are people still allowed to smoke in public places in Wisconsin, then? Banned in pubs and clubs in the UK, Ireland, and several other countries. Makes going out a much nicer experience.

Bliss - you know what they say - "absence makes the heart grow fonder." But don't forget "out of sight, out of mind."

Geisha, you include a lot of works by NT Wright. Who's he, and what are his creds? How about a quick bio? T-Bone - not too bright? Huh? Pass me the sunglasses next time we meet. Just cos you dropped college doesn't mean you aren't bright.

Newlife, you might find this thread of interest:

Well, I was later in than TheHighWay, and I don't recall any required reading. There was some required reading for the Adv Class, which I took immediately before coming in rez (only to be presented again with it almost as soon as I arrived in rez). Basically Adv Class stuff was the collaterals and some other Way stuff, JCOP, JCPS. We had a list of books that we must bring with us when we came in rez, which included PFAL, RHST, collaterals, JCOP, JCPS, a Bible Atlas, a Concordance, an English dictionary and probably several other books.

Waysider ... don't tell me you did that from memory ... (or is it ) Didn't know he'd pinched that too...but then again, maybe it was a bit too slick even for Slick Vic. Why am I not surprised?

Well, what has always worked for me is a product called "No More Jet Lag" - may be marketed in the US as "Jet Ease". Used to be in a slim white box with a blue plan on the front, very simple. It is a bunch of herbal extracts in a white tablet that you munch every two hours. Quite pleasant tasting. Buy in pharmacy or at airport. I have made many very lengthy plane journeys, literally from one side of the world to the other, the furthest points you can get apart. It's very tiring, as you might imagine. (There's a good reason why people do not commute between the uK and New Zealand...and it's not just cost!) When I have taken these tablets, I have arrived tired but fresh the other end. I have adjusted quickly with a longer night's sleep when I arrive, but no adjustment deficit that makes me feel hung over for the next three days. They work equally well no matter which way round you travel. As these have been so successful, I thought maybe I was imagining their effect...till I forgot or ran out or something, part way through a journey. The next few days in NZ were appallingly jetlagged. But when I have taken the tabs, I've lived a completely normal life and been fit enough to take off on some demanding physical exploits. Have a great trip, sounds wonderful!

Roll up, roll up! Get your brand here! Can't you just see it? Nice big bonfire, get the branding iron hot, stamp "CULT" across their hands or foreheads. Love their use of the abbreviation "ect." Don't you just love these highly literate characters ... that hide behind difficult KJV language when they don't even understand common English.

TWI wanted this two ways: (1) Jesus studied the scriptures very well and was well-taught by his parents. That's how he knew this stuff. (2) God was teaching him directly, by revelation (although they emphasized this more in his adult life). Gosh, can you imagine some precocious 12 year old TWI-raised kid...asking questions whilst seated at the feet of the leaders, teachers, call 'em what you will. One learns by asking questions. But the start of "no questions" was in PFAL where it was actively discouraged - write your questions down, we'll answer them at the end of the class - but never did. It amazes me there were Q&A sessions at WIB (not when I attended, early 90s) or Corps Week. When were the Q&A sessions closed down, pre- or post- VPW's death? Pre- or post-fog years? Another opportunity missed...word in culture.

Ain't that the truth. Nor did they have a clue as to the real value of all the skills brought in by other people, in performing arts, in tenderness for people, in anything. Were they ever a real "research" ministry? Or did they just grab bits of interesting slightly controversial material from other sources (Lamsa, etc) and pass it off as new light? I don't see why the team's individual abilities to research can't have been God-given - especially since there seems to be lasting benefit. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that perhaps some members of the team had the gift ministry (should you believe in such things) of Teachers. But of course to acknowledge that others had this gift ministry would detract from the glory of the self-appointed teacher.

Taxi... you never believed it but you stuck around anyway????? Do you mean you didn't believe any of it; or just that you didn't swallow the lot - but still managed to maintain some cynicism about some of the dogma?

Brave of you, Jeff,but what were you trying to do? Reduce some of the interest so that the the price would be driven down and there wouldn't be so much to purchase another property? The locals already knew it was a bad place to be. Sounds like the culties that you spoke to know in their hearts that what's going on is wrong but they don't know how to get out of it. Maybe you should have made up some "business cards" with the GSC website address on. Given them to the folks you spoke to. As a splinter group, it's the other side of their story, too.

How come I didn't get that piccy? Oh, I know, I was "serving" (on Beverage Crew again) not actually "attending" the class, probably. I think whilst in rez we suffered a "trial run" though. In the middle of the night? Well doncha know, all those DSs are much more active after midnight! That's why all WoWs had to be in bed by that time. Yeah, like DSs wear wrist watches... So he got you up at that time...so that, what, you could discern them better?

Absolutely, Geisha. It's especially vital to "use critical thinking skills concerning issues of faith." If we'd done that in the first place, maybe we wouldn't have suffered so under TWI's reign of stultification. Whether or not we have a belief in God, we should be willing to change that belief if the evidence that we acquire points to a different conclusion. If we do believe, we should be willing to change our ideas about who or what God is, too. If we don't believe, we should be willing to consider the questions you pose in your post - even if the conclusion is "I still don't have enough information." But: what helps with the critical thinking skills? What techniques? Recognising underlying beliefs, other "baselines" is a start. What comes after that? How do you sort the chaff from the wheat? I'm hopeful that this thread may assist people leaving or who have recently left TWI in their own quest for better ways of thinking. Just seeing "the other side" of the story as set out in all the threads in ATW will help a lot there; it will give another PoV to consider that place and its teachings. Getting sharper in our thinking abilities should assist us in all aspects of life, not just in the area of belief, but in considering personal relationships, instructions received in work environments, and in sports and hobby activities too.

If Geisha and George want to debate the existence or otherwise of God, may I politely request that that debate continue in Doctrinal?

No, not really, Cheranne. It's more about learning to think properly and in depth; to analyze what we understand, think; and to be able to make better decisions. To understand our thinking processes, and what we utilize when making decisions. Many of us, post-TWI, have quite damaged thinking skills. We may have been able to think properly before we got so involved, but our involvement, and the prolonged time spent where any questions we raised were "squashed," has taught us not to question anything. We learned to absorb information without thinking about it much; and if we did have questions or not understand, we either learned to ignore those questions or put them on one side in some dusty corner of our minds to think about later - but never got round to doing that. We may then have regurgitated that informatiion that we absorbed to other people, thus in our own minds promoting acceptance of it. We learned to accept information just given to us, without thinking about it. That in itself transferred to either (a) not accepting at all what others told us (because they are "unbelievers"); or (b) accepting what others told us, also unthinkingly (because accepting unthinkingly had become a habit). Both are wrong. If our thinking faculties have become dull or blunted through misuse, or even were never too sharp to begin with, we can hone those faculties so that our minds can really separate truth from error; so that we can see through lies, half-truths, propaganda. We can see what is mere "hype" and what is more "real" behind it. That doesn't just apply to Way dogma, as George puts it, but to all aspects of life. We will always have filters, premises, prejudices, a wealth of background that we take for granted. Critical thinking will help us understand some of those and how they come into play when accepting or rejecting any information. It's giving your mind a "tune up." A car engine works better if tuned occasionally - may even require the replacement of some parts if they are worn beyond serviceable limits. Maybe the last time we had the car serviced, manufacturer's original parts weren't used and the substitutes weren't quite of the right quality? They wore out and the engine could not perform so well. So if we replace them with parts of the correct quality, we will find a better-performance engine. A mind works better if it's exercised (used). If used, then it needs to be serviced occasionally, and if some ideas are found to be worn out or defective substitutes have been brought in, then they need to be replaced with parts fit for purpose. ("Take a check up from the neck up!") But that's just an analogy - don't take it too far...! T-Bone's post is very good and succinct. In a nutshell, this isn't about how to get out of The Way, but how to get Waybrain (uncritical thinking) out of us. How to learn to examine our thoughts and how to examine all kinds of information that comes to us. Neither is this thread a debate on the existence or otherwise of God.

And likewise, George, if we hang onto ideas that say there is no God. We all start from a set of assumptions, prejudices, and backgrounds. We need to know what our own assumptions are, and be able to take that into account, revising same if necessary. Recognising the starting point is significant in critical thinking, but to think that we don't have a starting point at all (as George seems to suppose) is a bit like being in the middle of a whiteout and not knowing which way the nearest safe place might be.

Chockfull, not sure you are right about all the ABS staying in country. I lived in another country and as I recall (though I may be wrong) some of the ABS had to be sent to HQ - not all of it. And some of the ABS that stayed in the country was used to subsidize events for the country believers (that I do know for sure). But hey it was a long time ago. Things may well have changed. It would be more of a surprise if they hadn't changed...

Crystalclearblue and mstar, those are two too-funny stories!!! (Cracking up laughing)

Ah, that old picture. A motorcycle, a sidecar, a large trailer, and a storage box on top of the trailer. Nothng like traveling light, huh?

...find yourself doing dishroom and other menial chores at HQ, which is more important than [being allowed to] attend your sister's wedding... ...have no knowledge of outside events and still wonder if it's true that the Berlin wall has come down... ...when you break down in tears after over a week of 20-hour days, and those responsible wonder chastise you for not being spiritually on top of things... ...give up a professional career and find yourself cleaning out hen houses in a potato field...