Twinky

That's it! And prior to that, you'd been encouraged to (and had) cut off all your "worldly" relationships - friends and family. You've nowhere to go. You're tied to the cult - until they cut the ties and let you fall into total oblivion. They don't care what happens to you. Well, God cares. The Good Shepherd comes out to seek you as one of the lost, when the 99 are safe. There are safe places to go - some churches, some other non-religious places. I'm sure he's seeking the ones still lost in TWI too, but they're obstinately hiding in rocks and caves.

Thanks, but no thanks.

It's pretty hard to step on a cat such that it will die. Can't imagine how that would happen innocently. Shot the kittens. Hmph. Real love of God's creation there. Kept the dog in a kennel. An anxious dog, at that. Perhaps that animal got shot too. If you really can't stand having an animal in the household, give it away to someone who will love and care for it. Don't abuse it. Grr! BecomingMe, if you can, get your own cat(s) and dog(s). They give so much unconditional love. And they ask so little of their owners. Having small animal pets is often where kids first learn to love.

Thought this was hilarious. Watch | Facebook

Mind you, even good priests could have difficulties with their sons: 1 Sam 8:1ff When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[a] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice. Dishonest gain. Bribery (love of money!). Perverted justice. (But didn't, it appears, sexually abuse women.) And that led directly to the appointment of the first king of Israel, one Saul (verses 4, 5), much against the wishes of Samuel himself, who clearly foresaw trouble. So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[b] us, such as all the other nations have.” We don't know what became of the sons, but they lost any part of the larger story - in which they too could have become great and as deeply revered as their father.

And the twist on the copies of TWI in splinter fellowships is definitely tainted.

Anything VPW put together himself and "taught" - definitely. I wouldn't discount the original sources of the material he plagiarised. Some of those are probably very good. But the twist put on the copies taints the copies badly. In any event: 1 Th 5:21 (NASB) but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good which means, really check it out, think about it in detail, and how it fits with the rest of what you know about the subject and about the Bible in general. The reverse of "holding firmly to that which is good" is "abandon, discard, throw away that which is false or faulty." I think we do a lot of that, here at GSC.

Don't patronise me, Mike. Just. Don't.

Appreciate your questioning and honest minds, Raf and T-Bone. I do think that codified religion and many hierarchical church systems are a big turn-off. And that includes TWI's branch of hierarchy. There are times (and many Christians admit to this) when you wonder (or doubt) why you believe something, why you believe in God, whether it's all a big con job. In the same way, perhaps, as one wonders why they're married to this annoying person, why they don't walk out on these disruptive kids, why they don't just get rid of the annoying pet. And then, the wonderer remembers why they choose to believe rather than doubt, to stay, to keep, etc. That's honestly loving. Do we not make loving God too complex with manmade rules, strictures, words, robes, etc? And we forget, sometimes, that it's not just a personal, individual love, but a corporate / community love too. A way of living with other people. Micah 6:8 What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Matt 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets Mark 12:30,31 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ g There is no commandment greater than these. 2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means [including over-complicated churchy stuff], as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Raf, you act in a loving, kind way, taking care of your wife and kids, trying to avoid fights and looking after the needy. You're keeping it simple, bro. I respect your position (just as I respect the position of a friend of mine, a muslim convert from Catholicism), know the reasons why, but I don't properly comprehend the decisions either of you made.

Just to bring this back a bit to the "absent Christ" - Jesus is our advocate, our mediator, before God. If God does not bring consequences, why would we need an advocate and mediator before God? Jesus is Our Advocate with the Father 1 John 2:1, NIV My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. Jesus is Our Intercessor Romans 8:34b, ESV Christ Jesus… is at the right hand of God…. interceding for us. Hebrews 7:24-25, NIV but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Jesus is Our Mediator 1 Timothy 2:5, NLT …there is only one God, and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity… Christ Jesus. Or is Jesus so busy mediating that he doesn't have time to be with us in the present?

From the "Absent Christ" thread: Thinking on this, and about Eli not reproving and stopping his sons from sleeping with the women at the entrance to the temple, I find myself thinking that VPW not only did not reprove LCM in his wandering habits - he actively encouraged it. Eli was a bad priest, a bad minister. He only weakly told his sons not to mess about with the women. I find myself wondering if he too had indulged in his younger days, basically taught his sons by his example, and therefore felt he couldn't reprove them. (Of course, I might be libelling in saying this, but he's hardly going to sue me.) It's not a sin that God laid at his door in this instance; who knows what went beforehand that isn't recorded? One doesn't get to be a bad priest in one incident. In later centuries, Jesus said this: (Matt 23:15) “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. Does that just refer to pedantry over the law? Or to other sins as well? - some of which are listed in Mt 23.

Thinking on this, and on a recent thread I started about Eli not reproving and stopping his sons from sleeping with the women at the entrance to the temple, I find myself thinking that VPW not only did not reprove LCM in his wandering habits - he actively encouraged it. Might expand that thought a bit more on the other thread, as this doesn't exactly fit with this thread.

Interesting, WW.. I checked The Oxford Companion to the Bible (ed. Metzger & Coogan) for more information "Unknown God. A dedication found on an Athenian altar according to Acts 17:23. Altars belonging to unknown gods (plural) at Olympia and elsewhere were probably aimed at satisfying divinities who had been overlooked, but they do not explain the singular formulation in Acts. Because votive offerings were connected to specific prayers, it is unlikely that an individual who had received aid would make a dedication to an unknown divinity. There is no evidence that either Stoics or gnostics addressed or worshipped the supreme being as an unknown god. The most likely reference is to the anonymous altars (ie, bearing no inscription) erected to local divinities throughout Athens under Solon. In Roman literature, these altars are sometimes cited as dedications to unknown gods (always plural). Whatever the source, the Areopagus speech reveals both the importance of relating the Christian message to broader cultural assumptions and the distinctiveness of Christian monotheism." (Contributed by Robert Stoops, Associate Professor, Dept of Liberal Studies, Western Washington University, Bellingham) Solon was a local aristocrat and powerful administrator. Here's a lengthy Wikipedia article about him. Solon - Wikipedia The article gives some interesting background to the cultural situation in Athens and the wider Mediterranean area at the time.

Correction to above post. Can't edit it now.

In church we are looking at 1 Samuel. I nearly fell off my chair when the reading was 1 Sam 3 and verse 13 hit me like ... well, I almost missed the rest of the reading. Fortunately, I had a Bible in my hands to read as well as reading the screen. Do look at all the variant readings for this verse. 1 Samuel 3:13 I told him that I would judge his house forever for the iniquity of which he knows, because his sons blasphemed God and he did not restrain them. (biblehub.com) Eli's sons blasphemed God. Made themselves vile. Brought a curse upon themselves. Did wickedly. Were cursing God. Sons "reviled the people" (Lamsa Bible). The Strong's notes contain this: blasphemed God מְקַֽלְלִ֤ים (mə·qal·lîm) Verb - Piel - Participle - masculine plural Strong's Hebrew 7043: 1) to be slight, be swift, be trifling, be of little account, be light 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to be slight, be abated (of water) 1a2) to be swift 1a3) to be trifling, be of little account 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be swift, show oneself swift 1b2) to appear trifling, be too trifling, be insignificant 1b3) to be lightly esteemed 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to make despicable 1c2) to curse 1d) (Pual) to be cursed 1e) (Hiphil) 1e1) to make light, lighten 1e2) to treat with contempt, bring contempt or dishonour 1f) (Pilpel) 1f1) to shake 1f2) to whet 1g) (Hithpalel) to shake oneself, be moved to and fro Various commentaries (click within the page above) refer to this in various less than lovely ways. Gill's commentary calls them vile and contemptible. The Bible reading in church was supposedly from NIV but it described Eli's sons as "CONTEMPTIBLE." I can't find a version of NIV that says this, but I did find on the above page a note that said the Masoretic and the Septuagint versions use the word "contemptible." You can see Strong's definition above. Ugh! Who could stand God saying they - because of their behaviour - were contemptible? I shudder to think of it. "Vile" - sounds horrible. "Blasphemed" - brush it off. (A bit common, what? We hardly think of it these days) But to have God think of one as "contemptible" - now that is scary. Scare-ee.

Glad you get this, Mike. Because, although you might think that VPW might have confessed his sins, he never changed his ways but continued raping women for years. As also did his protege, LCM. Prov 20:11 - Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. (How much more a supposed minister of religion??????? )

Note the chorus for the above is NOT: Turn your eyes upon Wierwille Look full at his PFAL And the things of earth will grow strangely dim In the light of its gloating and lies

Another for Mike:

For Mike (if he's still paying attention):

All this was happening while I was trying but failing to sleep in bed. If I'd realised, I'd've got my phone out and tried to read some of this monologue. Would've put me to sleep fast.

It appears that Christ really was "the absent Christ" to VPW. And so, Christ became absent to many who followed (or still follow) VPW and Wayish dogma. To those who practise Christianity in some form but no longer subscribe to Wayish dogma, Christ is far from absent; he's very near. To those who've abandoned all religious notions, Christ is certainly absent, because he doesn't exist and neither does God. Within this group, those seem to be the options.

You had to start by tithing - giving 10% - because if you didn't, God wouldn't even spit in your direction. Later, you had to give of your abundance - 15%. Never mind that some could barely afford to tithe - and "giving of their abundance" caused big financial problems - even to the point of putting people into debt (gasp!). TWI liked tithes, money, anything God says [Amp]: “Woe to you, [self-righteous] scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth (tithe) of your mint and dill and cumin [focusing on minor matters], and have neglected the weightier [more important moral and spiritual] provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the [primary] things you ought to have done without neglecting the others. Well actually, can we say that TWI neglected the more important matters? Did it even know of them, to neglect them? Tiredgirl seems to have made only the one post. Hope things are working out for her, somehow.

Great post, T-Bone. There is a very great deal written in the Bible about "meditating on the scriptures." Doesn't mean sitting in a funny position and making funny noises. It means, thinking about deeply. What does this mean, in heart, principle, action? How does it fit with other similar and dissimilar scriptures? How does one apply this in daily living? We have, through the death of Jesus a bigger picture now than was available in, say, Psalms. The question "Who is my neighbour?" was asked in a snarky way, by a scribe "wanting to justify himself." But it's a good question, when asked with an honest heart. Who do we have to love? And how? There's plenty written about this and I'm not going to reiterate - you can find it yourself online and in commentaries. But each one of us should contemplate who God loves: the rich and the poor, the kind and the unkind. Who does God not want to help? Mmmm... We too were once "afar off," but are now brought not just into God's neighbourhood, but into his house, his heart. How does that fit with our daily living? How does that fit with, for example, TWI's "mark and avoid" policy of those who dare to criticise leadership? Psalms in particular encourages thinking very deeply about all scriptures, doctrines and practices. Thinking deeply implies changes to thought processes, new ideas, new ways of seeing. God tells us his thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and also that we are to seek after his heart and therefore his thoughts. So we should think deeply about what's said and written, discuss with others (iron sharpens iron), and be open to grow and change. ("When I was a child, I thought as a child. But now...") Sometimes those growth changes are sudden, sometimes it's a growing understanding we know better now. Even after his sudden revelation Saul/Paul went off for some years to really think things through - and boy, what a change in his heart. And if you don't think and change, you become babyish ("For even by the time you ought to be teachers [ie living it and showing by example], ... you have become those having need of milk, and not of solid food.") The established churches look at their doctrines from time to time and change position, based often on big meetings (synods) of higher-ups. Views on marriage/divorce, children, abortion, how to treat spouses (specifically wives), homosexuality and same-sex marriage, etc, have all been examined, ideas and doctrines changed. I don't think that TWI has ever had such a discussion except as it pertains to not getting into trouble with secular laws. We all have a long way to go. But we as individuals can start the process now. Grow up. Be ready and willing to change your position on doctrine. Just for starters, try here: 12 BEST PSALMS FOR MEDITATION [Most Powerful Psalms] (psalm91.com)

Perhaps some of us are seeing actual people being "blessed." And none of them know anything about PFAL. But God knows them, loves them and blesses them. As for me, and many people here, we "hang out with" lots of known Christian people. And some non-Christians - for it's possible to have deep and meaningful discussions even with agnostic and atheists. I have NO proPFAL people in my intellectual life's network, because it seems to me that there is no intellectual life in any proPFAL network. I do, however, see the joy in the lives of real, practising, believing Christians across a range of churches and denominations. You will be very surprised, Mike, when you finally see all the joy we Christian people have. I suggest you branch out and get some new ideas flowing regarding Christianity. And in particular, regarding Jesus Christ. I also suggest that you are wrapped up in "intellectual inbreeding" - kinda like being wrapped up in clingfilm.