Twinky

Well done, Chocky. I wish you many more years of happiness together.

Well done, Rocky. Sounds like your activity was with equals, and not, from your quote, as an abuse of leadership power. Self-awareness is a wonderful thing.

There will always be those stronger males who appear more attractive to the opposite sex (or their own sex...!) and some are not perhaps so attractive but their role in society is. Clergy, doctors, etc, fall into this category. Perhaps politicians, too. Office bosses. Do groupies still hang around pop groups? Some are "alpha males" (and wannabe alpha males) who think it's a recognition of their physical beauty or power. What would Jesus do? He loved women! Surrounded himself with them. Boosted them up against the cultural norm that saw them as second-class citizens (or less). Women followed him, tended him, helped fund his ministry, hung about devotedly with the band of followers and apostles. But show me the report where Jesus abused women, or slept with any of them. I missed that. Or where other males in the company abused such women. Other males in his company had wives, who may or may not have travelled with the band. Jesus did not. Was he asexual? Unlikely. He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb 4:15) Therefore, it's possible to resist sexual urges, throwing yourself at women, women who throw themselves at you, etc etc. We all need (yes, really need) food. In a foodstore, do you help yourself to what's available? No! You recognise that it must be paid for, otherwise it's theft. You have the willpower to avoid pocketing that tasty-looking cake or chocolate bar or whatever. You don't steal a bottle of beer - well, maybe, if you're an alcoholic (=sick, ill) - you pay for it and consume appropriately. You don't nick your neighbour's car and go joyriding in it (unless you want a spell behind bars). You have the willpower to resist doing all these things. So why nick your neighbour's wife, daughter, mother? Do you really need to announce to the world how weak you are? How very far from being the strong man you fancy yourself as? Aha! Here is the answer (1 Cor 7:1ff): It is good to abstain from sexual relations. 2But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife. 5Do not deprive each other, except by mutual consent and for a time, so you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again, so that Satan will not tempt you through your lack of self-control. Lack of self-control is acknowledged, but hey! Here's the solution! And males who consistently show their weakness and lack of self-control in this area should take themselves away from temptation. Find another job. Never be alone with a woman. Wear a chastity belt. Get themselves castrated. Get psychological help/therapy. Give up your power and ego trip. Your problem - you do what it takes to fix it (developing willpower is a start). (And yes, I write this as one who loves delicious cakes and fine chocolate.) (I cope by avoiding cake shops and the choccy aisle.)

Thanks for confirming that, Rocky. Others, bear in mind that, as well as regular posters here, there are lurkers who read and don't post. I'm not going to tell.

I had a private message concerning this topic and I want to use an extract to highlight something else. (I'm not telling you who PM'd me. If that person wants to "out" themselves, that's their business.) I noticed while in High School a strong human dynamic that pops up in all human organizations and all ages: the Captain of the Football team get his choice of the hot cheer leaders. ... so many ministry leaders were like Football Captains and so many girls threw themselves at their feet, just like in High School and College. Just in case anyone had the idea that the women who served at the entrance to the tent of meeting were high school cheerleaders and "threw themselves" at Eli's sons, can I just remind them that Moses had, not that long before, firmly prohibited adultery. (D'ya remember? The ten commandments?) Who's the "guardian" of those commandments? Eli and his wicked sons. Even if (and there is no such inference) such women had crept naked into the sons' beds, it was still the sons' responsibility to say NO! and not to abuse the women. Eli knew, and half-heartedly rebuked his sons. There were big OT penalties for illicit sexual activity. It's clear those penalties were still in force (albeit laxly) in Jesus's time, and that's a long time later, centuries - over a millennium. There are many admonitions in the epistles; Paul wrote about sexual matters several times. And yet here we are. Two millennia later. Still dealing with clergy abuse of the women of the congregation. It's not limited to TWI. But it is - truly - the modus operandi for TWI. If male clergy feel "tempted" by the women in their congregation, whose fault is that? No, it is not the women's! It's the men's fault, and their weakness, if they cannot resist. And they should do what it takes to remove themselves. Never be alone with a woman not your wife (as Billy Graham is said to have insisted - so as to avoid any possible faint inference of impropriety). And never, never, never hunt down vulnerable women to take advantage of them.

That paragraph jumped out at me, too, WW. But for a bit different reason. And here we go, perhaps a derail of the subject right at the beginning (but I got bored reading the article about 1/3 the way through) - I cannot remember ever hearing said that VPW himself tithed. Lotsa classes that he put together; lots that his minions later taught; but did he himself tithe? Ever? To his old church in Van Wert? To any other churches that he had belonged to? Mocked the alleged ministers in the above paragraph; pretty much made it compulsory for everyone in his own super-shiny new ministry. Mebbe you will say (or he did say) that he didn't draw a salary. I don't know - but he certainly got lots of benefits in kind. A home to live in. Vehicles to drive or be driven in (who paid for the fuel?). Food, both provided and prepared for him. Willing workers, ready to maintain the extensive grounds of his home. Healthcare. Who knows what other benefits? How did he pay for the cigarettes and the booze, if he didn't draw a salary? (Hardly legitimate ministry expenses!) Did he quantify these many and varied benefits and "tithe" off their value? Or did he just all accept it as "love offerings" because he was so deeply committed (oh, soooo deeply committed) to "working the word" that he didn't have time for a paid job?

The "promise" didn't fail - for the simple reason that it never existed.

And here we are again, back in the sidings of despair, way off track, not discussing at all the original subject.

Yep, that's what I thought. Some manipulation later based on the WA paper? "I was delivered from xyz abuse. Now I know what God says and I want to share that with others" becomes "This person is vulnerable in this area of life. How can we use that? Meanwhile, let's use them as recruiters for more vulnerable people." On the other hand, I do think it's a good idea to get people to clarify for themselves why they'd want to do WA.

Yeah, we all know this phrase. I really don't remember it from PFAL and if it was said there, it was something that slid past me. In any event, THAT'S IRRELEVANT to what I want to say here. Rather more fitting than looking at supposed kings' rights, who remembers this, from 1 Samuel 2, which deals specifically with abuse of various types, including sexual abuse, by the priestly class: Eli’s Wicked Sons 12-15 Eli’s sons [Hophni and Phinehas] were scoundrels; they had no regard for the Lord. Now it was the practice of the priests that, whenever any of the people offered a sacrifice, the priest’s servant would come with a three-pronged fork in his hand while the meat was being boiled and would plunge the fork into the pan or kettle or caldron or pot. Whatever the fork brought up the priest would take for himself. This is how they treated all the Israelites who came to Shiloh. But even before the fat was burned, the priest’s servant would come and say to the person who was sacrificing, “Give the priest some meat to roast; he won’t accept boiled meat from you, but only raw. Eli's sons. Priest and Levites. Those in authority in the church of the time. What did they do? (1) They not only took the legitimate portion before it was quite due, but also took what was not their share. They were entitled to the shoulder, cheeks and stomach of the sacrificed animal (Deut 18:3) and it had to be roasted (not boiled or stewed) (Lev 7:29-35) - specifically had to be cooked by fire. They were not entitled to rummage around in stewpots, not allowed other cuts of meat, etc. But they just grabbed whatever they wanted. And further, it seems that they demanded uncooked meat as well. As well, no doubt, as taking what they were entitled to - the shoulder (a lovely part of roast lamb) and other parts. In fact, they were not just double-dipping, they were triple-dipping. What did Eli do? Beggar all. We all know a "priestly" fraternity that helps itself not only to what is due, but demands extra, time and time and time again. And not the portion given willingly or even according to law, but taken, forcibly, coercively, greedily. 22-25Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the tent of meeting. So he said to them, “Why do you do such things? I hear from all the people about these wicked deeds of yours. No, my sons; the report I hear spreading among the Lord’s people is not good. If one person sins against another, God may mediate for the offender; but if anyone sins against the Lord, who will intercede for them?” His sons, however, did not listen to their father’s rebuke, for it was the Lord’s will to put them to death. What did Eli do? Beggar all. (2) Hophni and Phinehas slept with the women who served there. And not just any women: specifically, those who served in the tabernacle. The church. The holy place. Just took these women for sexual servants. Who knows what these women were told? That they were serving the special needs of the "men of God"? It was some special blessing? They'd be specially favoured by God if they gave in to these priests' demands? We don't know - the story isn't about the women. But I doubt they felt good about this - basically - prostitution. This temple prostitution was practised by some of the heathens around and was banned amongst the Hebrews. God didn't like it then-a-days, either: Deut 23:17-18. No Israelite woman is to be a cult prostitute, and no Israelite man is to be a cult prostitute. But this is exactly what Hophni and Phinehas were doing. Treating the women as their right, as their personal cult prostitutes. Probably they encouraged, or at least ignored, similar behaviour by fellow priests. (Lead us not into temptation, Lord!!!) Sound familiar? What did some of TWI's women become? Cult prostitutes - some of them seem to have been passed around senior "clergy" and some were just abused by one or two clergy males. What did Eli do, then? He rather weakly told his sons not to be naughty boys. Eli was an old, old man; he was 98 when he died and had been the top priest for over 40 years (Deut 4: 15-18). Likely his sons would have been pretty old, too. Not young men, or even near in age to the abused women, but tacky lecherous old guys assaulting women young enough to be their daughters. One of them, at least, had a still-fecund wife. Probably both were married and had many children. It would be the norm. God wasn't thrilled by any of these men. Deut 3 records God's disgust and his telling the young Samuel what would be going to happen. Samuel told Eli, who - did sweet FA. Again. Did nothing. Didn't repent, change his heart, get onto his sons any more, just rather passively said, "let the lord do what he wants. Just let him get on with it. I don't care." Meantime, the youth Samuel continued growing with the Lord and following his ways. Some time after the recorded abuse (and no doubt it continued for some time), war with the Philistines broke out (again). Hophni and Phinehas were killed, and Eli dropped dead on hearing the news. I wonder why God allowed these foul actions to continue. Perhaps it was because Samuel was too young to take on the responsibility. Maybe Israel had become so degraded that Eli and his sons were the best that were available (eek!). What is true is that God raised up a real man, Samuel, obedient, faithful, bold, and unafraid to confront evil, whether in Eli or later in King David. And the wheels of God's justice came around and crushed the evil ones. I find that encouraging. While I don't want the head honchos at TWI to drop down dead (I'd rather they repented the error of their ways and made amends), I do earnestly want to see justice. They have had so many warnings. I want these debauched, fake, leaders out of the way, gone forever, so that others can't be harmed. It's time they too got their come-uppance. Meantime, let's seek out real men and women of God, whose words are trustworthy and whose actions and lifestyles line up genuinely with what God wants.

First aid: praying to God about it Second aid: praying with another believer about it Third aid: getting what most of us call "first aid" ie medical attention

Same old, same old. Slight variation on this theme - the Ambassadors are going to cities where there is already a TWI (Corps?) presence. In some ways that has to be good - a bunch of people rocking up in a strange city with no support is very hard, as many of us here know. It would be good if the believers there did give some support. But with the presence of an existing mob of believers, complete with some sort of coordinator, is this going to be another way to keep the ambassadors under control? (Waysider and Chockfull: no sneaking off to the truck stop!) It sounds a bit like Lightbearers, where groups of in-rez Corps were sent off to cities where there was an established branch (Lightbearers stayed with current believers) and were expected to get a class together within the two weeks they were there. Who noticed the sleight of hand? "The requirements are..." but if you read the words below the video, some sneaky additional words appear: "must complete a 500- to 750-word essay describing (a) their spiritual goals and (b) how they expect to contribute as a Way Ambassador." Not saying this is a bad thing, just that they don't mention it right away.

Why would anyone want to mask the flavour? The flavour and tastiness are some of the reasons that people make their own bread!

I agree with Mike on this one. And that's what I did. I had all the collaterals, but only read one of them just before the Advanced Class exam. In fact, I think that's the only time I read that book, whichever it was. There's a lot of info "out there" to suggest that it takes three weeks to build a new habit, and another three months to really consolidate it.

Splendid, T-Bone. Lost inside a Bible group! Makes me think of the "blessings and cursings" - specifically the curses, from Mt Ebal. Deut 27:17:

I make a whole wheat, sometimes a seedy, loaf sometimes. My basic recipe calls for 1 or 2 cups white and 3 or 2 cups wholemeal/whole wheat (4 cups altogether) but I usually make mine 1 white and 3 wholemeal/whole wheat/other. Full "brown" flour makes a rather denser loaf, a bit smaller. Experiment till you find a texture that you like.

The latest "must have" kitchen accessory. Have you got one? Do you like it? Do you use it often? What for? What has it replaced in your kitchen (how did you cook items before?) How easy is it to look after - does it need a lot of detailed cleaning? Thinking of getting one, but not sure it'll do me much good. I don't have room for a lot of kitchen gadgets. I believe an air fryer can be used to cook small portions of food and is more cost-effective than heating a whole oven for a small thing (not that I do that anyway, I cook a small item in some different way). Any opinions from air-fryer users would be welcome.

Or maybe God "gave" you that twisted ankle, so that one of these amazingly spiritual coordinators could demonstrate their amazing ability to minister the "gift of healing." /sarc/

And of course, VPW "led" us all to the new birth by teaching us "the word" and then how to SIT. So VPW has done very many "works" and perhaps that makes him greater than Jesus many times over. (Barf.) Those commentaries quoted by T-Bone above are helpful to flesh out the thinking behind what was surely something that VPW appropriated without giving any sufficient background. Perhaps he pinched bits from Bullinger too. Here, in How to Enjoy the Bible, Bullinger suggests that we are absent from the Lord - not that the Lord is absent from us. A very different kettle of fish.

Thanks, T-Bone. Your long post above is very helpful.

Yeah, I was taught it was the "new birth" as well, which wasn't available before Jesus died, so of course he couldn't help (?) anyone there. I don't know what this means, but I'm not willing to accept the say-so of a corrupt "teacher" who didn't understand basic principles of Christianity. Is "the new birth" a "work" anyway? I'd be satisfied if I could consistently do a fraction of the "works" that Jesus did. Happy to aim bigger once I achieve consistency.

Another thing that strikes me is this: Jphn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Okay, Jesus has gone to the Father (= absent) but we can do greater works than him? Greater works than Jesus? That makes us greater than Jesus, perhaps? Ach, so: the Word of God is the will of God, because then - we are all Gods and greater than Jesus, who is merely a human being. And an absentee human being, at that. Shove over, Jesus. It's us who should be seated at the right hand of the Father. NOT!!!!

Okay, I'm late to the party on this. One thing that strikes me is that the gospels were almost forbidden territory. Almost everything we were taught came from the epistles - Acts, and the Pauline epistles in particular. So that actually did make Christ "absent" in our lives, to some extent. Do you remember VW talking in PFAL about having all those books about the Bible, but never actually reading it? It seems to me that we had all these books, letters, articles, Waymag pages, etc, and the epistles to an extent, about the earthly life of Jesus, but we never actually read the very books, the gospels, where that life story was written.

Likewise. My life had been dedicated to TWI. M&A was terrible. At one point I was near suicidal - what stopped me was that I thought I was so incompetent (an idea instilled by TWI) that I thought I'd only succeed in injuring myself, making myself tetraplegic or something, and that then I'd never be able to do anything about ending it all. Happily, God led me to a great church that had patience with my weirdness. And now, life is soooo good. Ransmed, healed, restored, forgiven - who like me his praise should sing? Enjoy this lovely hymn, with great views over countryside in the north of England with its lush green fields and heather moors.

Rocky, was just going to say the same thing. It's hard for those of us who were young adults to cope with the aftermath of being in TWI, particularly if they've been in residence. It's especially hard for anyone raised from a young age, or born into, TWI, whether or not they've been in rez. And it must be especially, especially, hard for anyone raised in the M'dale household, where it was permanent and involuntary in-rez. (It was hard enough for those in the Wierwille household.) It's good that you can still talk to your mom, though they may be strained conversations at times. (She gets her own share of beating here.) Are you welcome on grounds in Ohio, or do you not want to visit there ever again? I'm truly sorry that you have this family rupture to deal with along with all the other Wayfer problems, but you're wise to keep out of your dad's orbit. You know the adage: "The truth will set you free." There is much truth here and it's to be hoped that these truths will unbind your heart, soul and mind, and set you free from the constraints put upon you. Much peace to you.