oldiesman

The Newstates Constitution was an actual document that was written by a guy named Tugwell, financed by the Ford Foundation. That was not written by, but exposed, by Liberty Lobby... Read it for yourself: Newstates Constitution

Skyrider, I would suggest to you that just because we the believers may not have heard about Don & Howard's objections to Craig's verbal abuse, doesn't mean those objections weren't there. All it means is those objections weren't made public. I do realize that it can be frustrating not knowing what goes on behind the scenes. I learned this from being on the co-op board of my co-op, where shareholders have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in the board meeting, unless one of the board members speaks up. Most times, the board members do not share what goes on in "executive session" as it can come back to haunt them. I agree. The open communication and open free ideas of Greasespot with little censorship is wonderful. Thanks.

Victor Paul WierwilleBy The Way December 4, 1980 St. Mary's Evening Leader

Mike, my two cents: Had the Patron Saint of Aloofness left us with Dr.'s last lost teaching ONLY, without all the accusations against the BOT, and all the other subsequent gobbledygook, ... and then after THAT, had the ministry failed or split, there would be no excuse whatever. But instead of that, Geer left us with no specifics, gobbledygook, ... that unfortunately Craig (primarily) and others got deceived with. There was so much suspicion and doubt against Craig and the BOT by 1988, that when Craig did write to all the believers that we should master PFAL, folks were way too suspicious, and weren't listening. I believe Geer had a major role in that continued suspicion. Do you concur?

Please Bliss, tell him it is very important. ;) :lol: :D

Bliss, Do you know if the syllabus has a section or place saying anything about "how to get saved/born again"?

George person, here is some evidence that first century believers' priority wasn't home ownership, careers, family, etc.. Paul separated the disciples, and moved the Word with those disciples who wanted to commit themselves to that. What do you think those disciples were doing for those two years, investing in real estate?

Well I suppose a video clip of Craig himself would suffice. :P But seriously, if someone, anyone, quotes something published by twi, showing that SIT is a requirement for salvation, I will believe twi changed their teaching regarding salvation.

Folks' individual notes don't prove what twi taught, ... all it proves is one's own perception, on what was taught. Perceptions may differ from person to person. I would still like to see, from Craig's book "Way of Abundance" or other written document from Craig, what he wrote about "how to get saved/ born again." Folks who took his class should be able to provide this please.

This would be a very interesting study and comparison. What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi? Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts primarily concerned about their earthly families, home ownership, and careers? Or were they primarily concerned about moving the Word, fellowshipping with like-minded believers, moving the Word, witnessing, believing the time is short, moving the Word, getting folks born again and sharing the truth, moving the Word, etc. etc. Point is, if true Christianity is moving the Word over the world, and the primary duty of Christians is to be ambassadors for Christ, then maybe we weren't so wrong in twi to think about moving the Word all the time and forsaking these earthly things? After all, I don't think the word would have moved nearly so fast and far if folks' primary concern was home ownership, spending time with family/relatives, putting your career first, etc. I'm not saying any of these things are not good things to do if that's what one wants to do. I just like to remind myself that things done in twi weren't evil because some earthly pleasures were put off. It may be a good thing for folks who are regretting their twi experience to be reminded of some of these things. Building your house upon "the Rock" doesn't necessarily mean home ownership.

The following is a picture from the PFAL syllabus and is what twi has always taught on how to get born again:

Mark, I do not recall, myself. But, even if VP said it was by revelation, and if the revelation was genuine, ... that revelation doesn't guarantee that Craig would walk worthy of the vocation. Do you think that God giving revelation means the whole fiasco wouldn't have occurred? I do not think there are any guarantees like that. Man is weak, sinful; and remember there is still a devil that deceives, steals kills and destroys.

Wayfer Not, I do not know, or believe, that the BOT ever admitted that they attempted murder on Cabellero, much less actually doing it. Therefore, they had no accusation to negate. I have no reason to believe HCW is deliberately lying, but I do believe he can be mistaken. The whole tale makes little sense. Did you ever ask yourself why the BOT was never brought up on criminal charges, if this tale is true? 8,000 people supposedly heard the BOT admit that they attempted to murder Ricardo Cabellero, and not one person of the 8,000 calls the sheriff? In 17 years? :o Attempted murder is very bad, and there is no statute of limitations on this crime. Why don't you call the local sheriff right now if you believe this? As a matter of fact, it is your duty, if you believe this tale. Craig and Howard are still alive. Try to get them arrested.

In other words, Craig wasn't spiritually sharp enough to detect Geer's lies, therefore he shouldn't have been in charge? Perhaps. The topic of whether Craig was the best man for the job is certainly open to debate. With all that has happened, it certainly gives folks food for thought.

HCW, you seem to be all over the map with this.You mention this vicious rumor, and now you say you don't know whether you believe it or not? You say that the BOT has done worse than attempt to murder someone? They will stop at nothing and attempt murder, if they can get away with it? HCW, I think your view on this is nuts. And you yourself allowed this subject to be focused on, by repeating this "rumor". And you are correct, I do not believe the BOT would do such a heinous thing. Without ample proof.

In other words, it's ok for folks to get deceived, as long as twi is brought down in the process...

Mark, you left out a third possibility: That the BOT was deceived into believing that what Geer wrote was the truth. Craig later admitted this, that he was deceived, after 3 years of mega heavy doses of the "patron saint of aloofness".

So then as long as twi is brought down, you don't care much whether it is with lies, or the truth?

HCW, I think you are now backpeddling a little. When I re-read your first post about the attempted murder plot by the trustees, it sure looks like you believe it. And you didn't say then, that you didn't believe it. In fact, you made some statements to the contrary. And judging from responses by Groucho, Jkboehme, Belle, Wayfer Not, and Markomalley, it was believable enough for them. Makes one wonder why folks would even repeat silly rumors folks don't even believe themselves? :( Never mind HCW. You heard it and don't believe it. I don't either.

Not just one man. Don't forget the other 7,999 who heard this. :o

Great points Danny. Thank you.

HCW, The fact that you and some others are so quick to believe the trustees (Craig, Don & Howard) actually tried to murder Ricardo Cabellero, with no proof other than hearsay from Geer, and possibly repeated again by others, is pretty astounding. Consider the source, my friend. Also, this allegation of attempted murder that was supposedly admitted to by the trustees, in front of 8,000 corps people, never made it into "The Cult That Snapped", and in all the years of Waydale and Greasespot, was never revealed (as far as I know) until now, by you. Seems awfully strange don't ya think? All those folks knowing about a murder attempt that the trustees admitted to, and not a peep all these years? I would think this has to be the Battlestar Galactica of conspiracies of silence? Or just plain doo doo bull crappa? Anyway, consider the following: Karl KahlerThe Cult That Snapped Page 269

Jkboehme, Unfortunately, lots of folks like yourself have discarded the truths we learned in twi, because of the sins of people. You are not alone. But thanks at least for your admission that you have no spiritual beliefs at the moment.

Such as the non-coercive material from say, the RC church, that unless you obey all of their sacraments, you haven't got a chance to enter the Kingdom of God? Maybe.

Ok I'll bite. Here's one: The following is the twi doctrine on how to get born again of God's Spirit: Victor Paul WierwillePFAL Part IV -- The New Birth Chapter 19 -- Born Again of Incorruptible Seed Pgs. 295-98 OK Jkboehme, what is all this? Repackaged paganism? Franco-teutonic Aryan Supremacy? Cultic 'new man' hermetic christ, counterfeit knowledge? Another fable of Hermes Trismegistus? Other? True Christianity?