oldiesman

I agree...good points. I bet Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, among many other examples, generated some pretty remarkable neuron changes in Paul's brain. Golly, I wonder if Jesus was even concerned imperiling Paul's Constitutional First Amendment rights when he assaulted Paul with non-consensual thought reform packaged persuasion? :D

Belle, David Anderson's book "The Two Ways of the Christian Church" makes some thought provoking arguments that the Book of James should never have been included. Hope you get a chance to read it.

You have no enduring or substantive interests in twi doctrine, other than not minding to proclaim and condemn that doctrine as "repackaged paganism", "Franco-teutonic Aryan supremacy", "cultic 'new man' hermetic christ, counterfeit knowledge" and so forth; ... yet remain silent when asked about TRUE Christianity. A person who spots a counterfeit, also would need to know the genuine. Otherwise, how would that person be able to identify a counterfeit?

Was Craig's teaching on the Days of Peleg anything like this?: Days of Peleg

Jkboehme, for someone who supposedly has no interest in TWI doctrine, you sure do have a lot of disparaging things to say about it. For example, It is repackaged paganism... It is the promotion of Franco-teutonic Aryan supremacy ... It is cultic "new man" hermetic christ, counterfeit knowledge... and so forth... But then when I ask what the doctrines of TRUE Christianity are, as opposed to the counterfeit we learned in TWI, (I figure you should know these things since you are supposedly knowledgeable of a counterfeit) ... You continue to remain silent.

I fully understand that.The tale has about as much credence as Chris Geer saying that the trustees murdered VP. Consider the source.

I respect you Belle. I just don't believe everything I read on the internet. Do you?

HCW, I like ya. I read your stuff about the BOT ordering Ricardo Cabellero to be executed, and then admitting to same, right there on the main stage in front of 8,000 people. Umm, please, send me some of what you been smokin'? I want some. Perhaps the best part of this whole tale is that the criminal conspiracy has been a secret all these years, until now revealed by YOU, HCW, right here, over 17 years later. Golly, my little pea brain figures that it must be a real astounding thing for 8,000 folks to keep this admission of attempted murder a secret. Until now, when one (you, HCW) reveals this truth for all of us. Heavy baby. Even Karl Kahler missed this one. And he was probably right there in the audience too.

No better than an animal biologically, yes, because the natural man of body and soul is spiritually dead. But I still have a problem with twi supposedly teaching that someone is "not considered to be born again", when the teaching was so clear on how to get born again. I do not have a copy of "Way of Abundance & Power" and do not wish to buy a copy just to prove my point, but if anyone wants to check their copy and quote what Craig wrote about "how to get born again/saved", it would be helpful here. I would be flabbergasted, stunned, if he wrote something demonstrably different than what I remember VP teaching, which is referenced below: Victor Paul WierwillePower for Abundant Living Book Part IV -- The New Birth Chapter 19 -- Born Again of Incorruptible Seed Pgs. 295-98 I also have a pic from the syllabus that I can upload tomorrow.

Oh Belle, you know I'm right on this. TWI taught that one couldn't really "know for sure" that they are saved unless they SIT. It is the proof in the senses realm; NOT that they ARE NOT saved. As you know, VP taught in PFAL that folks can be born again, and not SIT. Remember the account of Apollos getting the folks born again (Acts 19:1-6), but since they didn't know anything about SIT, they didn't SIT. Then Paul came in and layed hands, taught about SIT, and they SIT? VP taught that in PFAL.

Gee, I didn't know that. :oBet they can teach Jkboehme a thing or two. ;) That was NEVER implied. Liar liar pants on fire.

Belle, you are speaking to me! Oh Belle. Aaw, you know what the Word says. Here's one: Who do you believe? Jkboehme, or Jesus?

How about a biblical perspective?

So then may we assume that you are a trinitarian, Jkboehme? Sunnyfla, Thanks for your response. I will consider what you have written here. I am considering getting lightly involved with an offshoot and I hear what you're saying.

Welcome Thin Lizzy. I wasn't sure about what you said about "still being in The Way"; are you in or out? Anyway, hope you stick around and share. Oakspear, did you take your class at Virginia Beach? me too. :P

Thanks for sharing Jim. I never had a problem with believing that serving in twi was the same as serving God and Christ. That's because I always believed that twi was (at one time) like "the first century church in the twentieth", teaching biblical truths, profitable fellowships and such, and believing that we as twi folks are the body of Christ...we as participants as members of that one body. Also I never allowed the sins of the big shots to corrupt that belief, and hope it stays that way. I believe God rescued me and brought me into His Kingdom by way of twi. But that is past. Right now, I am considering some lite participation with one of the offshoots... we'll see what happens. :)

Morgan, I think the question of knowing what ones true self is in light of their possible Christian beliefs is very relevant to this thread. You may disagree, and that's fine. But bear in mind, this is a public forum, and therefore open to varying opinions. If you and Belle want to have a private meeting excluding others, go right ahead.

SunnyFla, In spite of what some folks might believe, I am able to read small print :D. Thanks for sharing your experiences. You describe the offshoots you attended as the same beliefs as twi, but not all the hype and legalism. Very layed back and super nice. Sounds pretty good, but then you said you were not going to get sucked up in that "way of thinking again?" If you wish to elaborate what "way of thinking" you mean, feel free.

Belle, what do you think of the statement that for a Christian, the "real you" is the new man, Christ in you? Bogus?

Jkboehme, can you please use larger print, I can't see. From 1975 to 1991, some 16 years, I went to twig approximately once a week, with other sporadic twi events other times. But that's approx. 2 hours out of 168 hours per week, to get a dose of your so-called covert packaged persuasion, that according to you, was supposed to brainwash my neuro transmitters. I don't know what you define as covert packaged persuasion, but I think you "have some explaining to do". I thought the twigs I attended were excellent and godly. Others folks of different beliefs and religions might disagree, but those were my beliefs, and we are still free in this country to worship God how we choose. I believed what God wanted me to learn from the bible, and nothing covert about it. The twig coordinators were excellent too... The bible speaks of thought reform, a large part of your attempted condemnation is what a Christian is asked to do with their own mind, to become more Christ-like. Here's just one verse: Your opinion that any thought reform we experienced in twi was "non-consented" by folks is another opinion of yours that is unproven, and begs much explanation. And, you still haven't answered my other questions.

Ah Rascal, my carnal pleasures ...

I think it's an interesting discussion for folks, deciding what their true self should be. Reminds me of a couple of John Lynn's books, "Will the Real You Please Stand Up" and, "Will The Real You Please Remain Standing"... We learned in twi that the "real you" is the Christ in you. Not the "old man" and his ways. And, everything to get your mind in alignment and harmony with "the real you", the Christ in you, the new man, is a godly endeavor. So I think it all goes back to the essential question...what a person decides for themself, is really them. Here are a couple of verses to consider:

Jkboehme, You didn't answer my previous question about what the doctrines of true Christianity were. Since you labelled twi doctrines as repackaged paganism, i.e the counterfeit, I thought you might share with the uneducated, what the genuine is. Do you believe Christian doctrine at all? How about the offshoots? Does your stuff apply to them too? I really need to know before I visit John Lynn, to guard against a possible attempted onslaught of neurological damage.

Gee, what's up with this thread? I thought the zealous finger pointing condemnations were reserved exclusively for Vicktor Fuhrer and BOT? Anyway, don't you know that Tom J. snapped somewhere along the way? That's riiiiiiight Before TWI, he was gentle as a wimp cat. But because of twi's strategically designed epidemic of synthetically pseudomystic procilvity for harmful cultic personality changes, that's what happened to Tom ol' boy. He was brainwashed, hypnotized, his own self destroyed in favor of being a bizarre heremetic parasitic Furhrer automoton, scans of his brain must show the biochemical changes by cultic packaged persuasion, his stinkin' injuriously psychologically exploited neurotransmitters may be disgusting to YOU: Just remember, he was not responsible for his actions. He was brainwashed, hypnotized, his own self destroyed with the repackaged paganism of the homeletic's master. Show some mercy, will ya? The extent of this damage is deep.

Jkboehme, A question: Does your stuff apply to the offshoots, as well? Just got a letter from STFI (CES), informing me that John Lynn will be in my territory on December 14, for a teaching, in a fellowship. I was thinking of going, but geeze, seeing as you spoke about the psychological dangers of twi doctrines, many of which STFI still believes: mental injuries accompanied with all this, thought reform, group think, brainwashing by a pseudo-spiritual counterfeit entrepreneur, psychic numbing depersonalization in favor of the group, being made to feel inferior, repression of personal beliefs, etc etc. I'm afraid of being hynotized with repackaged paganism of Pavlovian learning, all over again...