oldiesman

I pointed that out numerous times?You are misrepresenting my position, and putting words in my mouth. Nothing new. I prefer to look at the facts in each situation, then judge accordingly. But *you* seem to ALWAYS place the blame on twi, or the bot, or other representatives of twi, or anything twi related; the facts of a situation be damned.

Sounds like the only other option satisfying to you may have been not to have the program at all?But what's your take on when assaults, rapes and murders happen outside of twi? Who do you blame then?

I agree with WhiteDove & Linda Z. that the corps was a lifetime of leadership in twi, which meant a lifetime of "moving the Word," twi's way. Looking at it from another perspective, from the sponsor's perspective: why would someone sponsor an individual if they knew it was only for 4 years, then only to see the corps grad quit moving the Word?

It looks like you just missed the revelation...not to worry though God is still in business. ;) I tend to agree with the WOWs. You were blessed for speaking/doing the Word and it could have been worse. You're out there preaching the gospel to everything that moves (Mark 16:15)... Then God warns you not to speak to this guy over there.. but, unfortunately, you missed it. You speak to him anyway, he follows and harasses you, and, in a display of confident power and believing, you boldly say "In the name of Jesus Christ get off me"! Immediately the guy backs off, astonished at the power of God you were exposing him to! Sounds like a victorious story to me. :lol:

Have you decided to join us yet, ex10? Works for saint and sinner alike. "we are one"

Which is a clear double-standard. You blame twi and the bot for the ungodliness that happened. Yet offer no thanks or congrats to twi and the bot for the godliness that happened. Plain and simple hypocrisy.

Yeah, all except VP, Craig, and BOT, and anyone else who's on your poo poo list. :lol: :lol:

Cool did suggest that revelation was bogus, yes. Go back and read what Cool posted before you accuse me of manipulation.And how do you know they lied? Are you saying that there was never any revelation/inspiration during WOW placements? How can you possibly know all that? But if you said they lacked the prophetic skills to know when some of these tragic events would happen, I would agree with you.

I don't look at it as deliberately placing people in harm's way. But, if someone wanted to sue them if they thought they'd get financial recompense for damages, it might make sense depending on the circumstances.This reminds me of my cooperative. I was on the Board of Directors, and was protected by insurance, in the event someone falls on ice or whatnot and sues the Corporation and me for damages. Was it my intent that the person fall and hurt themselves? No! Same may be said of the bot. Was it their intent that folks got hurt, raped, murdered? I trow not :lol: Everything is *intent*. But it is possible that the Corporation *can be* legally held responsible for damages depending on the individual circumstances, which is why businesses have insurance policies, and specific officers & directors insurance policies to protect themselves individually as directors. Even if they did all that at all times, their efforts still wouldn't have guaranteed safety at all times.

I don't know how they could have possibly guaranteed safety.That's like saying they claimed they were able to eliminate ungodliness. :lol: :lol: Having coffee right now, Cool.And no I am not a closet innie!! So then you believe that nobody in twi ever received revelation or godly inspiration? Well, we just disagree. :lol:

Fear not, ex 10. Come. Join us. "we are one"

Why not?Just looking at the numbers alone, they must be doing something right. :lol:

Even if they were, how could the bot guarantee that the people who volunteered would always walk in godliness?Or, how could the bot guarantee that some wouldn't display horrible ungodliness, at various times? It is hardly like it.If the bot knowingly gave known pedophiles fellowships and children's fellowships, then yes, those on the bot making that decision should be blamed. But how does that compare with a shooting incident that the bot knows nothing about until after the fact?

Unless the director of the WOW program or the twi bot knew of the dangerous unstablity of this person, how can they be blamed for this shooting?It's about as lame an excuse as one might try to blame the firearms manufacturer for the misuse of firearms. But some do try...

That's all for me today folks. Have a great weekend

I don't doubt you were informed that he didn't have wheels. I think he may have even mentioned that at the meeting we attended. But, I was informed otherwise. After I heard from Vince how mistreated he supposedly was, I addressed this and was told that he was given (given) a van that formerly belonged to the Way of NY. I think it may have been the bookstore van at the time. He also was given a severance package: $$money. You don't have to believe me, but I am sticking with this opinion because it was told to me by someone I trust who knew all about that stuff. I don't think Vince was the helpless victim he portrayed himself to be and I don't think he disclosed all the facts about his situation with folks. It's not an issue; i'm just relaying some facts of that day. I wish Vince the best and always will.

What other gods were/are they worshipping? Who are they? Name them. Be specific. Don Wierwille was an administrator. Who did he worship, the Administrator God? :lol:

If he thought that, he was wrong. Why should he be afraid or have reservations about giving details? Details and facts would have proven his point of view. He didn't owe me anything, but it sure would have been the loving thing to do for him to give specific details and facts, if he had them, rather than jerk me around some.Trust his judgments without confirmatory details? I Trow Not :lol: Maybe you ignored them. Personally, I didn't hear anything from them. Also, in state of NY, nobody I spoke to mentioned anything about sexual misconduct. I would have addressed that, if I knew about it.

Ok Goey, you're right. I should have said I Trow Not :)

Wordwolf wrote: I really beg to differ! Not sure if it was the same meeting we were at, but the meeting I was at, folks greeted us were wearing Way nametags. Don't remember if it was NY or twi, but it was "The Way". Same thing. These things (nametags, songbooks, grapevines) all belonged to the Way of New York and twi. Same bible group. Vince was using his former employer's name and belongings, for his own purposes. It was a pathetic moment. If he wanted to conduct his own meeting and have CBC nametags, songbooks, grapevines, and so forth, that would have been different.

Yeah I thought about it, and don't see the carnality of my decision, under the circumstances. As Craig suggested, the carnality is determined by the mindset of the person making the decision. I stood with Craig at that time because I believed he was moving the Word or at least wanted to move it in a greater capacity than he had been in the previous 3 years, and he wanted and needed support therein, which I gave to him. To say it was carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support Craig in the movement of Gods' Word, is like saying its carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support Joe Torre to win the pennant, or like saying it's carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support General George Casey to win the Iraq war. In sum, I don't see how its carnal to stand with and support a leader in a Cause one believes in. Our cause in twi at that time was moving the Word, which he wrote was the only context in which he required loyalty and obedience. I thought Vince was a great believer and a good man who got tricked by Geer. Heck, he didn't treat me that bad. Just because he gave me the cold shoulder treatment that once and didn't respond to my letter, doesn't make him a bad person. I'm just relaying to you some facts. I think his statement about the bot "worshipping other gods" was off the mark.

Wordwolf wrote: I beg to differ. I wrote down concerns and then addressed them directly with Don Wierwille. Called him on the telephone. I went to ROA 1989 too, saw what was happening.One of my concerns was the lack of communication between the BOT, and believers in the twigs. Don told me that that was correct, there was a breakdown of communication and that the bot would do better about it in the future. Also asked him about the breakdown between Vince and the BOT. Don told me what Vince told him and me, that Vince believed they were worshipping other gods... I asked questions and listened to folks around me in NY, for specifics on how the bot was blowing it. None were offered. No beef, no juice, nothing that I'd be able to write down and address with Don when I called him. I asked my twig coordinators to write down their concerns. They refused. I don't know who you were speaking to and what questions you were asking, but if you didn't address your concerns directly with one of the BOT, then you really can't say your heard all sides or you gave them an honest chance to explain their side of your allegations.

Socks, you made some excellent points. Thanks. :D

I partially agree. He was ultimately responsible, yes. But as time went on, from 1989 thru and approaching 1994 and beyond, I heard he gave more and more credence and listened more and more to Rosalie and Donna, who became his counsellors. I heard he basically shelved Don & Howard. "In the know" folks have attested to this fact, and I believe that fact greatly and negatively affected ministry decisions, which were becoming more and more harmful and legalistic as the years went by. Most certainly made up their minds to leave without hearing all sides, did they not?Did most even bother to hear from the Bot, call them up and address their concerns directly with them? Nah. It's just like what Craig wrote. At that point, folks were judging them guilty, even before the bot had a chance to prove anything.

At that point, I'm sure a lot of accusations and ill will were flying back and forth, on both sides. I certainly got ill will from Vince. So did the bot. I remember a NY meeting sometime after June of 1989 (around June of 89 I sent Vince a 3-page letter federal express, asking him to stand with Craig, which he never responded to). This meeting was after then when Vince was already fired, but was leading a so-called "Way International" meeting. So I just had to make an appearance. :lol: He was using Way Int'l songbooks, had a newsletter there with "the Way of New York" logo, yet he already had been fired! So right there he was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself. The substance of his teaching was how off Craig and the Bot were and how he had been mistreated. At the end of the teaching was when I spoke with Vince, asked him why he never responded to my letter, and why he wasn't standing with Craig. It was at that point he told me that I was carnal, my family was carnal, Craig and the BOT were worshpping other gods, and so forth, with no specifics. When I asked him for specifics, real specifics, he actually said something like this: "If I told you what really was going on, I'd be sinning" :lol: :lol: Gee. That really helped, didn't it? Anyway, he seemed teed off at me too, and walked away from me, no goodbyes or anything. Just walked away, giving me the cold shoulder treatment.