oldiesman

Fear not. And have a great weekend...

Of course it depends on the severity of the crime, but it may also be that they don't want to rat on a brother/sister in Christ if they don't have to. But kicking them out immediately is strong punishment, and better than keeping them in, wouldn't you say?

WOW, I hadn't read this thread up until now, and it's very interesting. This may put to rest the idea that LCM was picked by "revelation". Ha ha! how true how true.Here's a little stow-ray: Don't know if I ever posted this, but I was one of the runners who ran one of the 10 mile legs, from Rome City to Athens, carrying the torch. I think I also was the only non-corps person running. As I recall, this effort was coordinated by Bob Moynihan and all who ran received a bronze medallion. I had been training for this event for 6 months prior to make sure I'd be able to run 10 miles straight without stopping. The day before the start at Rome City, I develop this sharp pain in one of my legs. I start limping around and start getting very worried that I might not be able to run. While limping by the reception desk, a gal at the reception desk saw me limping, and I told her what was wrong. She immediately layed hands and prayed for me. The pain was gone. Next day, I ran the 10 miles with no problems. Day after that, my body ached all over, except that one part of my leg that was healed the day before! True story. Anyway, back to Craig, yeah he had to have the spotlight. Those of us who did the marathon ran 10 miles each, but all of a sudden when the torch is coming around the corner guess who's carrying it? Craig. Did he run 10 miles? No. Apparently Craig grabbed the torch a few yards back, and started running carrying the torch to the front with some others behind him. So here we are, each one running 10 miles busting our butts while we watch Craig grabbing the freakin torch running his few yards and getting all the attention like he's been running for miles. :lol:

Goey, I submit that my belief in and agreement with Craig's 1989 letters are most likely minority beliefs. But I think my reasoning is still sound, nonetheless.However, as far as my overall experience and witness that twi was at one time "moving the Word" and a "ministry of God", I believe that may be the majority opinion of ex-wayers too. It depends on who you talk to I suppose, but I hold to that opinion not only because of my own personal experiences, and those of others that I know, some of who were in better position than me to know, but also those that are STILL THERE somehow hanging in and being loyal even today, plus all the plethora of folks in the offshoots, who have "eaten the fish and spit out the bones".

I still believe that Oakspear. You explained it well even though you don't believe it anymore.

At that point he did believe he was God's choice to lead the ministry as he was commissioned to do, and he had not quit and was still moving.And he believed his was God's choice from the installation. Here's an excerpt from his letter: If memory serves, I think the "genuine spiritual suspicion" false doctrine started sometime in 1994.

I simply think those who didn't want to stand with Craig in the movement of the Word were asked to leave, it's really that simple.Here is another way he put it in his April 14, 1989 letter, some biblical words: I believe the distinction was all the more necessary, because of all the purported hard feelings and ill will against Craig at that time.I have even heard some opinions (maybe you have too) that it even goes as far back as 1982, when Craig was installed as president. The ill will and resentment started with some leaders way back then. Some leaders of the way never accepted his installation, believing it should be someone else, believing Craig was an idiot jock or whatever, and all those years let the negative feelings brew, just waiting for an opportunity to rebel. No, I don't believe so. I think that is a slight extremist position. If you are talking, say, after 1993, I'd tend to agree.

Well this works both ways.While I can only be a witness to my own experience and that which I have personally witnessed, I'm always open to hearing and assessing others' experiences and try to factor that in. But, I am not going to ignore or poo poo MY experience, which you consistently seem to do. Versions of things other than yours might be something you might want to try to consider when making YOUR assessment of things.

And had folks who, instead of departing, made the commitment to stand with Craig for the movement of the Word, it would have been a credit to them, themselves. That was part of the whole point, to get folks to "move the word" rather than sit back and nag and finger point.Folks who DID make a commitment to move the Word with Craig, did so for that reason, to move the Word.

Yeah there sure were folks finger pointing and nagging back then. Then when Craig demanded they quit nagging and finger pointing, but in contrast stand with him in the movement of the Word, they declined.What do you suppose they might have been more concerned about? Continued movement of the Word, or nagging? And so Craig said, if you couldn't stop your finger pointing and nagging, you'd be better somewhere else. PFAL is not itself god breathed but it did communicate the rightly divided word in many areas of biblical teaching. And, twi was not only just about PFAL and there was more Craig was doing than just supporting PFAL alone.

Goey said: The call for loyalty and likemindedness was in light of moving the word, so yes I do believe he was standing at that point.Here is an excerpt of what he wrote in his companion letter to Staff Believers in April 14, 1989: He wasn't asking folks to stand with him selling french fries. He was asking folks to stand with him in the movement of the Word, and at that point he was prepared to move it, and he did. If they HAD spoken truth, or at least some applicable FACTS, there would have been items to investigate. But I didn't hear truth or facts...all I heard was that the BOT was carnal, worshipping other gods, and I was carnal, with no specifics.And it was very very peaceful, even joyous, not having to argue with my former twig coordinators anymore.

Nah Belle, I am serious. :) But IT'S FRIDAY happy happy happy

After 1994 I would agree. But the Word (or twi's version of) was still moving and being supported immediately after the letter was written, for about a 5-year window after.Just for fun, I took a gander at my piles of Way Memorabilia last nite, particularly from the time period of March, 1989 thru July 1991, when I departed my local twi twig. Yes, there were plenty of good things happening from the BOT on down and the word was moving and being supported, as opposed to being chopped up to pieces. I suppose it's difficult to understand if you weren't around those years, but only look at what happened after 1994 and beyond.

WhiteDove Writes: As a result of the events, I would surmise that they had to be careful to let folks back in who continued to think evil of Craig and the BOT and twi. They were very worried about future distruptions from former way grads, not standing with twi. Whispering, backbiting, evil speaking, and so forth. There was a lot of teaching in those days to us about walking away and departing from folks who think and speak evil of you. Cut out gangrene...and so forth.I would surmise then, that those folks who thought Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, and off the wall; those who thought others in twi were a bunch of foolish "yes men", worshipping Craig etc.;... forfeited their "right" to sit thru PFAL again, at least from twi. Don't know if that was "legal", perhaps it wasn't. But they had to be careful who they let back in at that point because of all the hard feelings. At that point, can you really blame them?

Wordwolf, I read your stuff. I moved up to Dutchess County, Poughkeepsie, from the Bronx, in 1988. So I know nothing about NYC after 1988 except that I work here. I did go to a few NYC twigs in the 80's, (of Steve B...) and his lovely wife. But no, I don't think I ever posted that about NYC.

In contrast, he was still moving the Word, and doing good things "on the Word".Craig wrote Why ignore these things? Are they all worthless? All evil? When he asked folks to stand with him, he was asking folks to stand with and support him in doing the above things. That's all.

I do remember some criticisms of folks who stayed after the letter, that we were called "yes men".I don't recall too much gossip about Craig Worship those few years following. I remember riding on the train once, and my former twig coordinator talking about the ministry developing "the statue" of Wierwille, which was that paperweight with Wierwille's face on it. Remember that? I guess we also were accused of practicing idolatry because of that. Let's all worship that paperweight. :lol: BTW, does anyone have an extra? I never got mine.

I don't belief it was, and I don't believe I said that.I think someone else said it was a hypocritical load ...

No, I don't know that.I believe at the point he wrote the letter, and the few years (maybe 5 years at most) that followed, he was concerned about moving and standing on the Word, and profit followed. Was he in fellowship with God continuously? I trow not. :lol: But were not PFAL classes still being run, WOW program, people getting blessed and healed, him moving God's word, teaching, and so forth? I am not so presumptuous to believe he was totally off the wall, all that time.

I disagree in part Mo.Craig wrote Yes he did want support. And he was saying, and I believe this, that part of supporting God and Christ also means walking with mutual love and respect likemindedness and one accord. Thinking that Craig and the BOT is off the wall and worshipping other gods doesn't fit that description, which was why a line had to be drawn.

Nobody is saying that the abuse can be justified. But, a lot of good was done as well.Both godliness and evil were happening simultaneously. And I believe both need to be considered to reach a balanced perspective that has some depth.

You didn't have to accept.You were free to leave. He was inviting you to leave. If you doubted that he was walking on the Word and moving forth with the things of God, he invited you to leave. I look at this as a call to recommit oneself, rev up the engine, ready to move, leaving the past behind. Those who couldn't or wouldn't leave the past behind, were asked to leave.

It does have problems that way.With the ministry, any ministry, I think all monies collected by the responsible parties should go to that very same group, supporting that one group. Why be duplicitous? Individual folks can send their own money to whereever they want. But being a leader in a particular group, church, ministry, cult, whatever you want to call it, responsible to collect money for that group, you really should be in full support of that group, or get out. My belief is: make up your mind who you stand with, and then take a stand, one way or the other. This is what Craig was writing, and I believe he was right on.

I beg to differ.I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed. But when I look at those events, they were godly. Folks left who believed Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, or at least not "standing on the word", which got the folks who were unhappy and malcontented, out. There was, among other things, lots of peace in the fellowships that remained. No more arguing about Craig and the BOT being off the wall. Twigs were loving full of peace unity, and no legalism. PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving. There was still a WOW program where the word was moving. Some folks were even returning, who had left in 1989. I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it. I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism. I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving. But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth.

I surmise because the response was an insult, prejudging that Martindale was not standing on the Word. It might be something like saying to Joe Torre (who just lost the pennant), "I will stand with you as long as you keep working to win ballgames". If you don't believe Torre wants to win ballgames, then go someplace else where you may believe in a manager who does. That was what Craig was saying. Also: Craig wrote In these places Craig is saying he is moving the Word. Why then was there the need for a wisecrack, suggesting he is not? Because they didn't believe he was standing on the Word, it's that simple.