oldiesman

We were a group that took the scriptures very seriously. So yeah, when the scripture said it, we believed God required it. I thought twi was pretty libertarian about it. you can do your utmost for his highest, or not, it was your choice. twi version of doing your utmost was going on these programs, wow, corps, etc. The Corps was suppose to be the greatest commitment you can make because you were giving everything else up to move the Word it is in that context that these things are to be viewed not Molech Worship. Coolwaters, where do you get your stuff?I rode on a motorcycle trip with Dr. & Mrs. Wierwille who were in their motorcoach (I was on my motorcycle) for one month in 1984, that's it. I never read and answered his mail. :P-->

It was pretty serious stuff we once were involved in. "let good and kindred go", remember? "consider everything else loss for Christ" was the attitude of commitment. Looking back on that now, I'm pretty astonished that I was that commited at one time to a noble cause. I've mellowed since then.

Dang Mr. Hammeroni you just made me spit coffee all over my business shirt.

Coolwaters, you are a speedy typist. :)-->

Yeah I can see that.Women who made a serious commitment to move the Word and that commitment was paramount above everything else, join a program wherein you can't have children. These women did not want to have children. They wanted to move the Word, above everything else. Otherwise, why join the Way Corps? And so they get pregnant in a program wherein they can't remain pregnant and strongly desire to remain in the program, a program where movement of the Word was paramount above everything else. I think these women who had their abortions paid for where treated VERY well because they had a choice. Some of our collective abs helped them continue their commitment. They had a choice to remain in the greatest program they believed in at that time, to have a second chance to remain in the program. Their potential children were secondary to their first priority, which was love God/neighbor and do the Word, which at that time in that circumstance meant to stay in the Way Corps.

Steve Lortz, yes I suppose I do, although I haven't examined the opposing view.I do still believe it but I guess it hasn't been a big deal to me either way, but if you care to explain what the possible hazards of believing that concept is, I will consider your view.

MO,If I may ask, what is LDS take on the Hurricane? How/why did God allow this to happen, if you believe that or another viewpoint?

I do believe it is possible for folks to pray to God, and God stopping the hurricane.Prayer with believing and receiving is in the bible. Why it didn't happen this time, I don't know. I believe it has happened in the past. Regarding the devil having a hand in it, it's really simple. There are two spiritual forces at work, God and Satan. Looking at it spiritually, who's the author of death? The devil gets the stigma for that. He caused the original calamity to happen, tofu v. bohu, he is the spiritual cause of death, in the least common denominator. That was in PFAL and I still believe that. So the devil did have a hand in it, whether today 2005 or ions ago, he had a hand in it happening, he's been around that long and the spiritual cause of death and destruction. Either that or God is the cause, then some of you folks might want to blame God for killing all these folks. :(-->

Those of you who believe twi was evil from the start, thru and thru: then those who were booted out got a good deal, didn't they? they were removed from the evil. So what are you continuously complaining about? Rejoice they were released from Satan twi released them from twi bondage...

Rascal, pot calling the kettle black.I will say this: I do think it's pretty difficult for the both of us to express compassion and understanding with each other, since we are so far apart in our beliefs.

I don't know if it's fair to compare my situation with others. After all I was very young, 19 years old, my parents still around and so they were willing to take me back, for a time. I do admit that was a big plus. However Dad booted my lazy a$$ out after a few months. So after that I was essentially on my own anyway. Don't get me wrong, I know by experience that these experiences were highly devastating. But even I too have been through it maybe that's why I can speak with some certainty about not blaming twi all the time. I really don't fully know what the penchant mindset against everything twi is about other than I hope I never catch it.

I think these are all gobbledygook rationalizations. As I mentioned a long time ago with respect to choices and free will in twi: we all had it. Only 3 exceptions I know of: children are exempt mentally retarded are exempt drugged are exempt all other decisions were made by free will choice That's what I believe and I'm sticking to it.

I believe what he taught should stand or fall on its own, regardless of anyone's arrogance, or lack thereof. Work it, and if it makes sense and works for you, you've got an answer. If you don't, you don't. As VP would say, "the return's coming". :)-->

A La Prochaine, I don't deny bad things happened in twi. But it seems so obvious to me that folks made decisions in their lives and now some regret those decisions and boldly blame twi, as if it's always twi's fault. ptwooee...

Then they shouldn't have volunteered. They didn't have to. They could have just been Joe Believers.But the corps was a program that had rules. You had to abide by those rules to remain...all of us did. Therefore if you signed up for the Corps, you were placing your life under those rules. Nobody to blame but yourself if you didn't follow the rules or had misgivings later on. Yeah BM was meant to be insulting, did you not read "oldiesboy" or is it just me you are reproving cause you get off on dissecting most everything I write? You're so good at that, WordWolf.

just conveying the experiences as I saw them, BM.

Mr. Hammeroni: All this could be true. The commitment could have been of God in the first place.Looking at it from the corps viewpoint, "giving them slack" would mean the corps would abandon their rule by allowing a couple to have a child while still in the program. na na na nah That would open a can of worms so the choices they apparent had was abort the fetus and continue in the program, or leave the program. Apparently they were told that their commitment to God was more important than having their baby. I think twi should have stayed out of this judgment because it's obviously up to the couple, or even better yet, kept their mouths shut and just dismissed the volunteers from the program since they broke the rules under their circumstances. Good for her, I bet she's happy she made that decision and didn't allow others to dictate her actions. Not unusual. Very little on those programs, quite regimental. Who said this, VP? I am surprmised if he did but who knows, he apparently screwed up quite a bit unbeknownst to the rest of us... If they went in the Corps, they probably had not many material possessions to begin with.Were they not allowed to go back to fellowship? Not allowed to reapply to the Corps at a future date? Many were, so their particular treatment is beyond me. Why were others treatment different so that they got to twig and reapplied at a later date? However I admit it's possible their treatment was that bad, God knows I wasn't there to witness that.

Mr Hammeroni: I don't understand what you mean here. I see this as they were dropped because the woman chose to bring the baby to term, and having a baby was not allowed in their circumstances, so therefore they disqualified themselves from their corps commitment. But you said they tried to continue under their existing circumstance? How could they since the woman decided to have the baby and therefore they were dropped... I guess I'm not understanding the story...

That was the door we walked thru when we didn't want to be involved anymore.It was always open. Jesus Christ is the beloved.We were accepted in the beloved, going to twig even though we broke our corps commitment. I obverved these things not just me but others who didn't follow thru with their Corps commitments. Joy and happiness in twig were available to those who didn't finish their corps commitments or thought it wasn't for them or thought it was too hard or extreme for them. It certainly wasn't an easy thing, it was very hard but healing was available as well. That is what I observed. For the sake of argument, let's say breaking the corps commitment meant breaking fellowship with God.Ok.. How did we get back in fellowship with God?...

There was always a choice, and if a participant didn't want to finish their corps commitment, fellowship was always available. The door was always available as well. I remember something here: I sponsored a corps gal who quit the corps 3 months prior to her graduating! How crazy I thought, for her to do that. THAT ACT teed me off, because among other things I shelled out money to have her go thru the corps program only to have her quit before she graduated. All this unbeknownst to me. BUT, that was her choice. After that, she was still welcome at twig after that, still accepted in the beloved.

Yes, I still believe what we were taught in PFAL.Man was the ruler of this world until he transferred rulership over to satan, who is now the god of the world, who has the ability and willingness to cause these unnatural calamities that kill people. HOWEVER, let's not blame the devil for everything. Last night O'Reilly had on a scientist who wrote a paper a few years ago submitting that a hurricane greater than level 3 would wipe out New Orleans. They were warned, but didn't improve their levees when they had the chance. So it appears that it was a calamity waiting to happen. :(-->

When you say "we" who do you refer to and how can you speak for everyone else?Besides, I saw lots of folks who walked in love. Even I did every now and then. :D-->

I think success under these circumstances is many folks in the offshoots and elsewhere continuing in the good doctrine while simultaneously abandoning the bad doctrine and practices.Keeping the baby and throwing out the bathwater, as they say. Keeping the gold from Egypt, as they say. I think some of the offshoots are doing an admirable job (much better than twi is) of holding fast to the good doctrine and practice without all the negative baggage of twi. I also consider some of the good doctrine some of the most controversial elements of Christianity, like manifestations of the spirit, JCING, ATDAN, etc., some things that are certainly at least food for thought to the readers.

We also had people who believed and acted on the Word of God...I miss Elena...first met her in 1973 at my first PFAL class on Shelter Island in July of 1973. I will never forget those evenings she led the "Hillside Sings". Went over her apartment a few times in Manhattan. First met Murphy P.G. there, strangely enough,...just in from Oklahoma. Elena and I kept in loose contact for a number of years. Always pleasant to be around and talk to. She also went on the motorcycle trip with us in 1984...she wrote a nice day by day journal about it which I still treasure. Last time I saw her was at the ROA in 1989... I think she left twi shortly after that. She was one of those pleasant kind believers who made twi a nice place to be, once upon a time.

When you consider the success of the offshoots, coupled with the effects of the meanness of L. Craigo driving tons of folks out who may very well still be there had there been more love in twi-2, you may come to the conclusion that lots of folks believe that most twi doctrine was correct for a very long time, and probably still do.