oldiesman

Am I? Ok. Whatever. ChasUFarley, do you know what an allegation is?From Merriam Webster's Tenth Collegiate Dictionary, an allegation is: 1) the act of alleging; 2) a positive assertion, specif: a statement by a party to a legal action of what the party undertakes to prove; 3) an assertion unsupported and by implication regarded as unsupportable. In short, an allegation is not proof. That's why we go to court, to prove allegations. And so when you say that Ms. Allen was raped, you are believing their allegation, which is to be viewed as unsupportable because it was never proven in court. Too bad too. They had a possibility of doing so. You can believe what you want, its your head.

David, I bet it's got something to do with Randi Dandy.

ChasUFarley, what violent crime? Geeze, and they think I'M on drugs. The Allens had the perfect opportunity to get all the facts out in the open, under oath, in open court, but since they didn't and chose da money instead, we'll never really know if she got raped, now would we? But as far as I understand the facts, she was sexually harassed. She could have opened the door, and left. There were no allegations of physical restraint. That's different from rape. But I would have loved to read the testimony, wouldn't you have?

cool dats mine control

I totally agree Johniam. And thx for the support.

ChasUFarley, don't you read? I didn't call anybody helpless mindless victims, in fact I believe the opposite. I believe adults like Fern All*n were not helpless mindless victims. And by the way, she sure made out well in the end, doncha think?

That's why I try to treat participants in twi-2 as responsible adults who can make decisions on their own. I think treating them like infantile helpless mindless victims doesn't do any good. Treat every decent person with respect and there's a good chance you'll receive back the same consideration. Me too Jonny. Thx for your comments.

Yeah dmiller, that makes sense. No Cool, I never heard of mine control. If any miners disagree, feel free to opine. Me too, HCW. However, I'd like to amend my previous dissent and say that there possibly were and are some folks who made decisions to stay in TWI because of fear.

No.First, no one can "make" you think something you don't choose to think for yourself, unless you are narcotized, perhaps. Participants in twi-2 are responsible for their own thoughts, and think for themselves, no matter what idiotic suggestions are proposed. LCM is gone, anyway. Instead of looking at twi-2 folks as helpless victims who can't leave, I see them as Christians who've made a choice where they want to be. Might not be the choice I'd make, but it's a choice, nevertheless.

Do you remember multiple beatings from multiple people? Some have said that all the adults carried around wooden spoons all the time, then spanked any child who got out of line at any time with the spoon.

Raf and Wordwolf, I was referring to folks who were once leadership in the Bronx in the 70's and early 80's, when I lived there. They or I were not in the Bronx in 1991. In 1991, they had a twig and lived closer up by Poughkeepsie, where I live now. But they ONCE were GIANTS in the Bronx, and that says something.

PFAL RULES! Happy Weekend, one and all!

Cool, I bet there were. I also bet there were folks who LEFT, to keep their marriages together. I saw that happen to my TC's in 1989. The wifey wanted out, and the hubby followed right along, but he told me he would have stayed in twi if he weren't married. Now who was running THAT show?

Motorhead and Galen, I was just kidding before, I don't know of anyone charging anything for PFAL. Don't know if it's legal though, does anyone? I thought PFAL was copyrighted? Anyway, let me know what you find out.

Mr. Hammeroni, perhaps you might start a new thread or email me privately? Don't want to derail any further.

Motorhead, last I heard bootleg copies of PFAL were in the $500-$750 range. How much do you want to spend?

Skyrider, from what I know Don Wierwille was never a yes-man as you claim, and your claim that LCM was oblivious to Donna and Rosalie's counsel is patently false. In fact, THAT was a primary cause of a lot of the legalistic problems of TWI-2, when LCM stopped listening to Don & Howard, and instead took his counsel from Donna and Rosalie. And Donna and Rosalie have been "in charge" now for about 10 years or so. Oakspear, I have accepted that some possibly stayed around for reasons you describe, especially spouses trying to save a marriage. That makes sense. Just a figure of speech I suppose, but when I bowed out of a neighboring fellowship, they couldn't care less if I attended ever again, and the leadership in the area didn't give a fig either. I was getting on their case (all of them, from the area coordinator on down) about starting the twig on time, because the TC kept on waiting 30 minutes for late folks to arrive, before starting the meeting. And they called my complaints "legalism". This was in 1991, before the REAL legalism started. Anyway, folks that were once GIANTS in believing in the Bronx, reduced themselves to embarrassments. These folks were good folks and were not evil, but lost their brains somewhere along the line.I was miserable so I left, and everyone was happy. Can't wait to get invited back.

Why Stay When You're Miserable? Well, at least another possibility is that there are some folks who are just simply miserable, in or out of twi. These folks set their affection on things of the earth, not on things above. Which is why it might be hard for them to abandon their misery. Maybe it always was...

Oakspear, I never left twi. They left me.

There really are only two ways to go with this. Ya either chose to be there, or ya didn't. I suppose you may say that children whose parents were in didn't have a choice. But adults must accept responsibility for their actions. That's my belief, and I'm sticking to it. Why did folks choose to be there and stay under sometimes trying circumstances? Love of and for God, fellowship, commitment, longsuffering and doctrine; I think all those things played a part.

Ok Groucho, "we" were conditioned. But, folks chose their level of conditioning. From the weakest level to the strongest level... Going to twig once a week... Going to twig twice a week... Going to twig three times a week... Going out WOW... Going out Way Corps... All different levels of conditioning of the participant's own choice, depending on their level of belief and commitment. You chose to be conditioned in football because that's what you wanted to do. Folks chose twi because that's what they wanted to do... no brainwashing, no excuses.