waysider

Dispensationalism was contrived in the mind of Man. It's artificial. It's simply a way to compartmentalize the chronology of the Bible. Wierwille latched onto the Grace aspect of it to rationalize his abhorrent behavior. He used it as a convenient loophole to make a mockery of God. He used that and his concept of spiritual adultery along with his separation of body, soul and spirit to develop his own belief system regarding extra-marital sex . In short, he created a theological system that facilitated and excused debauchery. It was a reprehensible pattern of development.

HaHaHaHa! I couldn't decide which one of those "smilies" would best convey the rhetoric.

In my opinion, it's important to understand the difference between a producer and a director. As Ted pointed out, a producer is someone who finances an artistic endeavor. Sometimes the producer will finance an effort alone and sometimes he/she will coordinate a group of investors. Clearly, Wierwille was the producer of WP and we, through ABS, were the group of investors. A director, on the other hand, coordinates the actual production. He/she may also delegate various aspects, such as costume design, set construction, vocal coaching, etc.The director is responsible for the artistic development and staging of the whole effort, though. As such, the director has a responsibility to deliver a satisfactory product to the producer and investors. Sometimes the two designations will overlap. The producer may also be the director, the director may also be the choreographer and so on. Sometimes these arrangements work well. Sometimes----not so well. (slightly off-topic---Bullets Over Broadway is a hilarious movie that illustrates what happens when things don't go well.) A successful director, like Ted, is one who knows how to elicit quality work from the performers, while still keeping the investors happy. Mighty, mighty big shoes to fill. I guess the question in my mind is how much Wierwille overstepped his function as strictly a producer. And, was he qualified to function outside of the producer role? The incident in New Bremen would seem to be such an instance. Anyway, as a producer, he did have an obligation to his investors to have at least some kind of voice in the production's development. Did he abuse that obligation by taking over the director's functions? And if he did, what are some examples in addition to the New Bremen incident?

Well said, Twinky.

Stepping up to the microphone is a bit like stepping up to the plate in baseball. You have to have a certain confidence that you are about to hit one out of the park. Call it ego if you want but it is a vital part of making a connection with the audience. Some people are so incredibly talented, like Eva Cassidy, they can pull it off without that confidence. They are the exception. Taking away that confidence is like telling a right handed batter he has to bat left.

What!!!! I'm aghast! What happened to all that "reaching up in Daddy's cookie jar"?

Gossolalia was being practiced long before Pentecost and is not exclusive to Christianity. ******************************************* Learned behavior The material explanation arrived at by a number of studies is that glossolalia is "learned behavior".[17][18] What is taught is the ability to produce language-like speech. This is only a partial explanation, but it is a part that has withstood much testing. It is possible to train novices to produce glossolalic speech. One experiment with 60 undergraduates found that 20% succeeded after merely listening to a 60-second sample, and 70% succeeded after training: Our findings that glossolalia can be easily learned through direct instruction, along with demonstrations that tongue speakers can initiate and terminate glossolalia upon request and can exhibit glossolalia in the absence of any indexes of trance[...]support the hypothesis that glossolalia utterances are goal-directed actions rather than involuntary happenings.[19] That glossolalia can be learned is also seen in the traces left behind by teachers. An investigation by the Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn showed that the influence of a particular leader can shape a group's glossolalia: where certain prominent glossolalists had visited, whole groups of glossolalists would speak in his style of speech.[20] However, certain sounds have been found to predominate throughout the world, irrespective of teachers. The word ‘shunda’ and its variations ‘shunder’, ‘shonder’ and ‘shindir’ are prominent in samples through the United States, Wales and New Zealand.[21] Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia HERE is another interesting article.

I don't think I'm very good at this game. :( I thought for sure this was an easy one. The answer is The Game Of Love----------Wayne Fontana & The Mindbenders. Would someone care to take the next one?

I really think VPW just saw this scripture as another tool in his mind control toolbox.

Good Article!! In my opinion.

David The forum is below "Tics & Tacs". There is nothing in it yet.

No thanks. I have a cellar full of my own crap. Of course, mine really is just a bunch of crap.

I never knew Donnie so I could be wrong in my perception of him. From all accounts I've ever heard from people who knew Donnie, his core motivations were pure. He was simply convinced in the message he was promoting and in his sales approach to "moving The Word". His efforts and motives were altruistic and philanthropic at their core. Meanwhile, Wierwille saw how effective this recruitment method was and latched onto it as a mass marketing tool. Wierwille though, had a much different agenda. He misinterpreted (or reinvented) this approach for very different reasons. Donnie's work (as well as others) was VPW's prototype for the WOW program. I think this was a mistake because, without the altruistic ingredient that Fug!t and others brought to it, the prototype was flawed. True, there were individual WOWs who shared this same mindset but they did not have the direct control of the program's direction that Wierwille had. Wierwille did not realize that the program was missing its main ingredient. It was a big miscalculation from a business standpoint---IMO

Likewise with the in-clusion of the graphic photographs that were accompanied with comments like, "Aren't her breasts just bee-u-tee-ful!" and a lengthy list of street terms for genitalia and sex acts that he chuckled and made light of. What exactly is "neutral" about showing photographs of various shapes of penises to 13 year old girls? And just so we don't deviate too far from the theological implications, Wierwille taught that the original sin was that Eve masturbated "and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he did eat." He offered no scriptural verification. He said "Father showed it to me." (paraphrased)--- "You'll just have to trust me on this one." Then he took it a step further and said that masturbation was not acceptable for married people unless it was a mutual activity, because it could not give true release from sexual tension. I guess you were supposed to read between the lines. He also said "Intercourse is always a spiritual event." Who would be a better partner in a "spiritual" experience that the MOG, himself? He was setting the stage for his future indiscretions. My point is that he deliberately gave theological significance to sexual release.

It may not have been spiritually healthy but it kept the ABS flowing to P.O. Box 328------

I'm confident they wanted us to think it could happen to us.

Might as well do an infomercial for buggy whips.

I posted the following on the "Geer Paper/VPW Santization" thread. Rather than derail that thread, I am moving this thought to a new discussion. ********************************************************** "This whole discussion makes me wonder if there wasn't a specific point at which the organization imploded. I'm not talking about "spiritually" but rather as the business venture that it was. I'm thinking it had already crashed and these other events, such as POP, the loyalty letter, the no-debt edict, etc. were simply what followed. Think in terms of a contagious disease. There's an exact moment when the disease is contracted. That's what I'm talking about. Next there is an incubation, followed by symptoms and finally, the aftermath of any permanent damage the disease may have inflicted. So, what I wonder is, was that "moment" at the inception of the WOW program, the expansion of the Way Corps, the live class in 1977, the AC in 1979, the reinvention of ROA, or what? If there was such a moment, the sanitization idea makes a great deal of sense. It's the symptom treatment phase. Now we are experiencing the aftermath. Hopefully, we've built some immunity in the process." *************************************************************** My personal opinion is that the business was born when VPW ran that first BG Leonard class in 1953. It plodded along slowly until the late 1960s. Then, it experienced a large scale growth spurt when he abscounded the efforts of Doop and Heefner. It was well on its way to (business) success functioning as a grass roots effort. But then, Wierwille misinterpreted the efforts of people like Donnie F. and instituted the WOW program. I think he saw it as a way to facilitate large scale growth in a short amount of time. And, in fact, the program did generate some short lived success. But ultimately, I think this particular decision spelled the beginning of the end for any hopes of long term growth of The Way as an established business. Wierwille failed to see his error. Instead, he interpreted the short term, rapid growth as an indication of a good business decision so he intensified his efforts. Just my opinion---Yours may be quite different.

This whole discussion makes me wonder if there wasn't a specific point at which the organization imploded. I'm not talking about "spiritually" but rather as the business venture that it was. I'm thinking it had already crashed and these other events, such as POP, the loyalty letter, the no-debt edict, etc. were simply what followed. Think in terms of a contagious disease. There's an exact moment when the disease is contracted. That's what I'm talking about. Next there is an incubation, followed by symptoms and finally, the aftermath of any permanent damage the disease may have inflicted. So, what I wonder is, was that "moment" at the inception of the WOW program, the expansion of the Way Corps, the live class in 1977, the AC in 1979, the reinvention of ROA, or what? If there was such a moment, the sanitization idea makes a great deal of sense. It's the symptom treatment phase. Now we are experiencing the aftermath. Hopefully, we've built some immunity in the process.

Little Walter

Brown 25

The purpose of a man is to love a woman and the purpose of a woman is to love her man.

--------Simon and Garfunkel