waysider

I personally knew two people who died as a direct result of TWI's erroneous teachings. These are not people I knew "of". These are people I knew.

Thanks, David.

Try this on for a non-sexual twist. Wierwille insisted LEAD participants had to hitch hike from Ohio to New Mexico and back. Guess what? That's illegal in most parts Ohio as well as many areas they would have had to pass through. Wierwille lived in Ohio most his life. If he didn't know that, he should have. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. People WERE raped, beaten, even killed as a result of this decision. He was complicit.

Your point is not only moot, it's a deliberate distraction. Suddenly, you've decided this entire discussion needs to focus on one specific item, rape. This thread is not specifically about rape. Start a separate thread to that effect if you so choose. If you say Wierwille was never convicted of a crime, you are correct. (As far as I know.) If you say no one ever witnessed him engaging in illegal activities, you are grossly in error. Entire rooms full of people witnessed him partaking of illegal activities.

I have no objection to open discussion. After all, it was open discussion that provided an opportunity for at least two posters to tell us that they took CF&S when they were under age. Wierwille taught these classes both live and taped. One such poster was only 11 years old. CF&S was inappropriate for underage students. It is illegal to expose underage children to sexually explicit materials unless it is under the auspices of a certified training regimen. Even then, there is strict protocol that must be followed. I personally objected to this specific item and was told it was O.K because we were a closed corporation. Wierwille's response to this objection, though his response to the question was delivered second-hand, was "What better place to learn this stuff than in 'the family'"?

What I said, or at least implied, is that there is an abundance of such documentation scattered across the pages of GSC, as well as external sources, such as Kristen and Karl's books. My one snip simply illustrated that upper leadership (Regional Coordinator) was complicit. And, though VPW is, in fact, implicated in that snip, it by no means represents the entirety of testimony that can be found here. Have you read T-Bone's recalling of an incident that involved VPW calling a 16 year old girl to the front of a roomful of Way Corps and showing her a sexually graphic pen? That may not seem like such a big deal to you but is is illegal and was witnessed by an entire roomful of people. There are also testimonies here that recall an incident when Wierwille stated, in front of a roomful of people, that he had fondled a family member in order to teach her about sexuality. There is more than one person at GSC who was in that room. I'm no lawyer but I'm inclined to believe that constitutes sexual assault and corruption of a minor. If you read the link I provided carefully, you will also see a reference to VPW transporting across state lines for the purpose of debauchery. You have to cross state lines to get from Ohio to Kansas and vice versa. You will also find, on GSC, an incident where VPW (identified through context) offered a minor female alcohol. When she pointed out to VPW that she was underage, he assured her it was O.K. because she was with him and proceeded to supply her with a drink. That's against the law in Ohio. You may say that she was foolish to accept the drink and you will be correct, but it doesn't negate the legality.

Why is it that, when one of us would point out something similar to this, we were chastised for allowing our minds to harbor unrenewed thoughts but, when VPW did it, it was considered some "great" spiritual insight?

Here's one I think is appropriate. UP THE LINE by Little Walter Jacobs You used to love me, you said I was your desire You're actin' strange lately tryin' to, drive my love away I'm cuttin' out baby, Yes I'm goin' back up the line If I stay another day, you're goin' to, drive me out of my mind Took me from my home, I was nothin' but a child Made me all kinds of promises , I know it was a line of jive I'm cuttin' out baby, Yes I'm goin' back up the line If I stay another day, you're goin' to, drive me out of my mind Train is at the station, and I'm all packed to go It ain't no use to worry, 'cause I won't be back no more I'm cuttin' out baby, Yes I'm goin' back up the line If I stay another day, you're goin' to, drive me out of my mind (Sorry---Couldn't find an audio link.)

When you slip a drug into someones drink and then have sex with them while they are incapacitated, that is rape. It may not be rape in the same sense that many people use to define rape, (ie: forced physical violence that culminates in a sex act.) but it is, by legal definition, rape. Unwanted sex initiated trough coercion or psychological manipulation can also be sometimes defined as rape. Acting as a go-between to supply someone with sex partners is "pandering". It's also illegal. Exposing minors to pornography or sexually explicit materials is a crime. There are examples of that here and they name VPW. Supplying minors with alcohol is a crime in Ohio. There are examples of that here and they name VPW. Likewise, transporting a person across state lines for the purpose of "debauchery" is a federal crime. It is a violation of The Mann Act and does not require that a rape take place. There are examples of transporting for debauchery here on GSC and they name VPW. Here is an interesting link. http://www.yoursexhealth.org/html/details.php?det=1,0,0

You gotta be kidding! Why not change "High" Country Caravan, too, because it has a drug connotation?

I guess I must be behind the times. I don't see the sexual connotation.

Yeah, That's what I heard P.P. Wierwille say. (Or was it Uncle Harry?)

I'm still on your side.

My opinion--------- (When referencing a specific individual.) Before you can address that subject, you first have to wrestle with the possibility that the person was never really a genuine"minister" to begin with. Did they purposely abuse the office with which they were entrusted or simply stumble and fall due to human failings? edit: I think you also have to differentiate between adultery and Simony. For example, it's been reported that sexual favors were used in The Way as a form of payment in exchange for ordinations.

Click HERE

The secret code is in session #7. Never question. (Unless you want to suffer the consequences.) Having done all--------------STAND!

"To document his point. Numbers remember? Not to mention 3 is a long way from 100s" Another moot point. I never said there were hundreds. (Though I personally believe hundreds to be an underestimate.) What I did was to merely provide a few examples. What you did was discount and ignore them and then try to steer the topic off course by redirecting the focus. BTW---You seem to be avoiding my "question".

Life & Life Only

I'm so sorry, Dot. It takes a lot of courage to open your heart like that. These people who engage in these betrayals are sick. (IMO) I think it's a chronic kind of mental illness they have all their lives that thrives on conquest. As such, they become very skilled at disguising it and using it to suit their purpose. Your testimony serves as an alarm, a warning to others who might also be vulnerable. Thank you for bringing this danger out in the open for others to see.

I'm not sure that would constitute a conflict of interest---------- but it surely creates the appearance of one. And then to vocally protest books like Kristen's, that expose The Way, implying their motives are purely financial, seems a bit hypocritical to me. One would think that, with all the training The Way provided us in the art of obviation, a disclaimer would have appeared early on.

Happy Birthday! You're more priceless than this Degas.

"As a victim of a horrible crime my own self while in the way the reason I was marked was because he went to jail and I pressed charges and it was a mess and he was a leader. No so sorry you rabid internet drooling for a tidbit to talk about I aint saying dates names or anything but I aint a victim and I do not blame the way that I didnt know evil people prey on innocent women they didnt know I didnt know what I do now, anymore than they knew he was the type he was. they just didnt want people to know to focus on the drama of it all and I was very very hurt I was marked but in hind sight it was for the best because the "believers" would have taken sides etc... and I was so very hurt at the time. I did go back almost ten years later and found out with eyes to see and ears to hear the real issues I had with twi ." ******************************************************** Now you're saying someone in The Way abused you too? Suppose I tell you I think you just made that all up? After all, you're not providing any names or dates.

"not blaming a victim but can this happen to any girl at any time by any one?" Suppose that "anyone" was your daughter.

Perhaps you missed this: One of the worst things that happened to me, while associated with the Way, was I was raped by a Region Coordinator who visited our "Way home" after his teaching. We had a glass of wine and the three of us "Way home girls" went to sleep in our respective rooms. As I laid in my bed asleep, he climbed on top of me, and with my face down, I woke to him being already in progress. I tried to protest, but he put his hand over my mouth and told me, "You are blessing a man of God by taking care of my needs." I surrendered and experience what I later found to be an out-of-body experience. It was as if I was watching some woman that looked like me being pummeled by a man she hadn't accepted into her bed. ********************************************* Glass of wine, out-of-body experience------------ Sounds an awful lot like like GHB. (Which, at that time, was an OTC drug if I'm not mistaken.)