insurgent

The carpet in my house has to have those triangles when you vacuum and we have a tooth flossing chart. Does that count?

There are so many things twi could lose their a** over. They must be sweating bullets wondering what the next lawsuit will reveal.

Just me, Welcome to the GSpot! If you've been lurking for very long then you know that there are quite a few of us in the same type of situation. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not post anything personal about you that would let anyone within TWI to know who you are. Please don't give the sex, age or names of your children. Please don't tell what nights you have fellowship or what area you are in. If you want to, you can click on "PRIVATE TOPIC" and post to one particular person there and no one can see. You can also e-mail anyone who has established themselves as honest individuals with integrity and tell them of any announcements or things going on in your area so that they can filter, verify and share what you've learned without putting you in jeopardy. The WAYGB is alive and well and they print, photocopy and keep files on all of the people who post here. If they find out who you are THEY WILL DESTROY your family. Please feel free to start a private topic with me if you'd like and I will send my e-mail addy to you. I can tell you who I filter things through. They have kept my identity secret for a very long time. I don't mean to scare you, but I would hate for you to experience first hand how awful the kinder, gentler TWI still is. aside from that, can I buy you a danish and a coffee? ;)-->

Imablvr? WELCOME TO THE GSPOT! twi taught a lot of things wrong. This is also covered in the PFAL errors thread. Apistia and apethia are both taught incorrectly. twi is really good at twisting the scriptures to say what they want to say, they ignored research that showed the opposite. they are masters at double-speak. Turns out you were smarter and more "christian" than any of your twi buddies. You didn't lose the tender heartedness that God wants us to have.

JEREMIAH WAS A BULLFROG Also one of the all time best songs. "Joy to the World" by 3 Dog Night

Welcome Mr. Crown!! Could I buy you a latte or do you prefer expresso? The memo was not read in our area either and many people do not know about the memo except through conversations with others. Please post on.

Hope, how could you NOT have those verses memorized that year? They were read in every single teaching. Sadly, they have kept up that little bit and each year the theme verse is so repeated that you just want to puke during the teachings. Further isolation is exactly what the motive was. If you weren't in twi, you were an unbeliever.

Lindy, this is a very brief answer to your question as I am pressed for time, but if it sparks any other questions, please feel free to ask away. (I'll tell as much as I can without sacrificing my family to the WAYGB) I will tell you that my spouse knows that I do not wish to attend TWI functions and that I disagree with many, many things (policies, leadership styles, doctrines, etc). My spouse also knows that I would leave tomorrow and I would love for our whole family to leave the organiztion. I participate as little as possible to keep suspicion off of me/us. Not one person in twi suspects how I feel. My spouse does not see things the same way I do and pleaded with me to not leave twi and put that kind of burden on our relationship. (My spouse, I think, deep down knows it's an abusive organization. My spouse knows first-hand that they have been very, very abusive in the past to individuals.) Because of this pleading and since both of us know (but one won't admit it) that twi will stop at nothing to break up our marriage and our family if I were to leave, I have decided to stay. I truly believe that my spouse is looking for reasons to leave but struggling with the "justification" issues and fear that so many innies deal with. They know something's terribly wrong, but they see the good and it's really hard to reconcile the two. If I can build enough of a case on the abuse, wrong doctrine and hypocracy I can get my entire family out. I think that's what they are waiting for. I've started on my case, but it's in spurts. One, to not draw attention to my dissension and two, to not overwhelm my family and three, I just don't have the time to dig into the errors like I would prefer. Offering info from GSpot is not an option. It would provide no strength to my case. It has to be first hand, current abuse and it has to be doctrinal errors. There's plenty of this right here, but, with using information from the internet will not provide any support because of the ingrained devilishness teachings of twi. It appears as though my short answer isn't so short after all. -->

Lindy, You keep doing it from the outside and there are people like me doing it from the inside. We'll get the good ones out and free one day. I just know it. Napkinlady, Let's see...you left in 11/2001? That's over a year ago? How long has it been since the ousting of lcm? That's when they said they were going to take ONE YEAR to re-research and re-evaluate their stand against debt and buying a home and buying a car. We've been TOLD that they have a bunch of research (secular and biblical) but we haven't heard one peep about this supposed research. The change to allow people to buy a home is so obviously a pathetic attempt to hold onto people (and probably suggested by their lawyers) that even the most devoted innies know that. They aren't that stupid. You can hear the most sheepish ones say things about how they SAY they didn't have a policy against it, but they DID. And then they start thinking about other things that don't add up. They realize other LIES that they've been told. It's just a matter of time.

I think they are hilarious. I don't know any women personally who are offended by them. I do know a lot of men who quit drining Bud Light after finding out they advertise in gay magazines and target the gay community. Now, where's MY beer?

You listen to them condemn and make fun of the Jehovah's Witnesses for doing the exact same things they are asking us to do. Good Lord, people, if you don't like THEM knocking on YOUR door what makes you think THEY like YOU knocking on THEIR door??? TRULY, does anyone know how many people they screwed....errr....helped...by door to door witnessing? I know their success percentage just from Way Disciples who do this witnessing stuff full time is pathetic.

No, Oak, I think that's a line in "There's a bathroom on the right" or maybe it's "Bacon, Carrot, Biscuits" I don't remember the lyrics being posted, but I have a friend with a superb memory unless it's wrong-doings in TWI, but I'll ask....

So, what has Donna lost (or gained) since craig got ousted? 1. She lost the privilege to be "the wife of the way." She gained more freedom, more independence, more time with RR. 2. She lost having to support craig's anal decisions in public. She gained lots more time for shopping and being with the kidos. 3. She lost some respect as the wife of the president. She gained lots more respect for "standing with twi hq." 4. She lost an ego-driven husband who slept around. She gained one huge bedroom all to herself. 5. She lost a few hours of sleep during the turmoil. She gained a lifetime of living in the corps chalet and watching soaps. For whatever she lost.......*she gained back* in spades! Yep, she knows where her bread is buttered & jellyed!

just a little more I found: Not only is Rosalie the smiling phoney, but Harve Platig has been her puppet since Bob W****g***** left the WOW Auditorium overseer position. Never have I seen two such artificially "sweet" people in my life! My personal ouster from twi was orchestrated and choreographed by that dynamic duo. It was through a letter penned by the Ice Queen herself that I learned I was forbidden to set foot on twi grounds and that I would be arrested if I dared. This letter was left inside my house (which was not twi property), on my dining room table by someone who apparently entered the house during the day while I was at work and my children were at school. Rosalie's "roomies" in the basement were conspicuously overlooked when lcm began his homo-hunt back in '92(?), or whatever year it was. So many people questioned their relationship that at least on one occasion I remember lcm mentioning that they were "former" lesbians and that their expertise in that area enabled them to advise the trustees in dealing with the purge. What a crock! And for RR to have lived with them for so many years only reenforces the aspersions which have been cast on her relationship with Donna. The two of them together, especially after Dorothy Grace came along, were a chilling sight. But I have never felt sorry for Donna. She has known about VPW and lcm and all the rest of them all along. Small price to pay for the lifestyle of the rich and famous, huh? ---------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- And the sick thing about this is, she knew ALL of the CRIMES even as LCM was swearing her in as a BOT! ----------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- I remember her installation as a trustee. Afterward, she read a speech praising LCM. Very strange. If this was such a key spiritual position, I thought God should have been given the glory and professed allegiance of her heart. It' s chilling to think that RFR may have played such a key role in the destruction of the ministry. Someone who had been on staff said that LCM trusted RFR and was blind to the evil. Are we saying she incrementally wormed her way into being president? Xxxxx Allegiance to God from a woman who, when I said to her during a staff evaluation that I was so busy going to meetings and classes and mandatory functions on top of doing my job that I barely had time to read my Bible, responded: "Oh, you don't need to read the Bible. You read The Way Magazine every day." Meet your President, those of you who are still in and thinking LCM's demise will improve twi. This woman is a self-promoting weasel who will stop at nothing to keep herself and her pals in possession of the prime real estate of twi power. That she's the head of what is purported to be a BIBLICAL research ministry would be downright laughable if it weren't so sad. xxxx But back to Rosalie: Here's another tidbit that illustrates her "leadership" style. A week or two before my servitude under Rosalie was to end, our work "Twigs" were having Twig night. A couple people wanted to go watch somebody's Bible lands tour home movies, and a couple others said, "Hey, Lxxx's got a lot of packing and stuff to do. We'd like to go to her place and help her." I thanked those who volunteered to help (I didn't suggest this...they offered) and said to our TC, "Hey, why don't the ones who want to go to the movie thing do that, and the rest of us can hang out at my place and get a pizza." Heavens no! My replacement (whom I love still despite this junk that he got sucked into) as editorial' s TC apparently could not make such a weighty decision without first consulting Rosalie. When she heard that we "weren' t likeminded" she said, as if to a classroom full of 2nd- graders, "If you all can't decide something to do together, fine; you'll all stay in the office and work." Mind you, we were not arguing about this. We simply wanted to do two different things and we were perfectly fine with some doing one and some doing the other. Even her yes-men and -women were astounded by this. And btw, hey Rosalie, we didn't work a *lick* that night. Not even one of us. We all sat on the floor of our office and talked about how legalistic HQ was becoming and how sick we were of being treated like children. *All* of us. Even your devoted ones. xxxx Now if she knew what was going on, as is clearly stated above, then why did it take them 5 years to consider these matters serious enough to 'do the right thing'. Is there perhaps another reason. On 10/20/2000, they admitted to knowing LCM was doing this in June of 1998. I was involved in an confrontation with LCM regarding his sexual practices during the June Advanced Class 1998. On 10 /20 /0000 the papers reported on the Allens case: ------------------ 'In June 1998, the Board of Trustees learned Martindale had a sexual relationship with another follower of The Way. Board members "chastised" Martindale and took steps to guard against another incident. The board learned of the encounters with Allen in March 1999, but the motion explained that since those encounters predated June 1998 and the measures the board took then, board members decided no additional action was necessary. ' ----------------- Reply rivenbark ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- believe me now or believe me later......rivenbark knew ALL ABOUT EVERYTHING way before 1995......she was as aware of the myriad sordid details in 1986.... that i personally know.....probably even before that. ....why would any honest or self-respecting human being agree to be the prez of that rotten-to-the-corps outfit???....unless she's got plenty of her own skeletons to keep in her dank, steamy closets over there at crotch-haven.....er...skuse me.....foxhaven? .....can you 'splain these things to us miss rosalie fox rivenbark? .....or would such 'splainin' tarnish your standing in the social register??..... ---------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- I for one believe that RR did know about LCM's activities. I have no proof, but I feel pretty certain about this. When Rosalie had made her denials, those that were furious with her after reading the article, believed her. She convinced all present. I wish we could have some proof that RR knew about stuff. xxxx Although I didn't know Rosalie well, I did know Donna well. I watched as Rosalie started sinking her hooks into Donna and as she started isolating Donna from many people around her. Rosalie wanted Donna to herself. Under Rosalie's influence, Donna, who always was strong but compassionate, lost the compassion and just became hard. But, in my opinion, they are perfect for each other. Both wanted power, both wanted to be "at the top," and both wanted to "whisper in the kings ear." Believe Ralph, I guarantee you Rosalie knew about things for years. I know Donna offered one friend of mine, who was married to a "high profile" person, and who was getting a divorce, that if they'd stay together, there were plenty of married men Donna could set her up with to "take care of her needs." This was the early-mid '80s. Rosalie knew back then, not just since '95. Donna and Rosalie were, more emotionally married to each other than Donna and Craig. As long as Rosalie is at H.Q., Donna will never leave, unless of course Rosalie betrays Donna and stabs her in the back and gets rid of her to consolidate her power. As for Safety, they know everything. I used to spend hours with those guys on staff at H.Q. and was actually asked if I wanted to join for my next assignment. I know Donna used to smoke but had quit. I remember one corps week, after the meeting we were hanging out and she really, really wanted a cigarrette. Did she pick it up again? Or did she always smoke, but hid it from everyone? Denial in TWI is Standard Operating Procedure. LCM also denied sex with any but one woman! The Colorado Court Case...which Riverwitch had to now about indicated 4 ....SHE KNEW

Where ARE you coming from, Erick? [asked very sincerely] With tempered respect for vpw's life and works, I choose to walk forward in God's goodness and grace. Had I never heard of twi, I believe that God in His infinite mercy would have reached me some other way. That being said.......seeking counsel from dead men, as if it were PRESENT TRUTH, falls into the same category as Saul seeking out the witch of Endor. Maybe, that is a bit harsh of a comparison........but the similarities are chilling. Saul had lost his connection, his spirit, with God and sought out the woman of Endor to gain Samuel's (the prophet) counsel. WHY? "...THAT THOU MAYEST MAKE KNOWN UNTO ME WHAT I SHALL DO . What was Saul asking for?? He sought PREVAILING WORDS [from a dead man, Samuel] in a time of desperation and the Lord had forsaken him. Saul had disobeyed.....Saul had lied......Saul had deceitfully covered.....Saul blamed others.....Saul no longer had God's power to conquer the enemies. He reached for counterfeit measures........He soon perished. Relics..........idolatry...........devil spirits...........WITCHCRAFT. Twi keeps looking "to the dead" for direction, when they should be looking to the God of LIFE!! Twi keeps honoring the words of men, when they should be worshipping and magnifying the Author of the Words of Eternity!! Flash forward to present truth twi - seems all we do is read AROUND the Bible .....collaterals, syllabus, tapes, magazine, heartbeat (am I forgeting anything?)....... Course if we ever actually tossed the books and read the Bible none of us would have stuck around so long eh?........ Thank God, Rafael and the others are digging into the TRUTH compared to what we were taught! I've learned more here than I have in all my years with twi.

Hi Erick, While I respect your right to think what you want to, I AM GLAD these people post the FACTS about what ACTUALLY happened to them and the FACTS about what they know. I'm glad that they post their experiences and observations. I'm glad they share some of the most horrendous abuse and I'm really glad they do it over and over again. Why? Because if they told their story once and moved on I would have missed it. I would still think I was the only one hurt. I would still think I was the only one who felt like a total failure. I would still think that I was the only one who didn't believe some of the things TWI taught and I wouldn't have the answers that I now do. I would still think that it wasn't TWI, but me that was failing God. I would still be blindly obedient to TWI and some-what idolizing the leaders. I would still be giving an obscene amount of money to them. I would still be paying rent twice as much as my house payment. I would still be believing God to somehow cover my retirement instead of putting the money from the above 2 lines into a retirement account and taking 'worldly' advice that is better than ANY I got from TWI. I would still be afraid to make a decision without the blessing of my leadership. I would still be afraid of dying because I want to leave the 'household'. I would still believe that VP was an honest, godly man full of integrity and valor. I would still believe 'it was a one time affair' and that was the only lawsuit. I could go on, but I think (hope) you get my drift.

Since there are so many new posters and lurkers and many of them may not know anything about the fox in charge of TWI, this seems to be worth repeating. I do not have the sources for these posts, but they are from very credible posters at WayDale and/or GSpot or I would not have kept these things to fuel my fight to get my family out. Rosalie Fox Rivenbark is from New Bern, North Carolina (anyone in the area can easily dig up her public records and information on her family background). I believe that she was a teacher there for a long time prior to TWI. She is from a wealthy background (although I don't believe that she herself is wealthy). The Rivenbark name is well known in New Bern. To the best of my knowledge, SHE CURRENTLY OWNS PROPERTY IN NEW BERN, NC. This fact is not known by hardly any Way people. She sends the various taxing authorities checks to cover her taxes annually. Interestingly enough, with Rosalie supposedly living on a "need basis," it strikes me as a bit of a double standard that The Way would allow her take part of her "need basis determined" salary and let her pay property taxes in NC with it. After all, smoking was banned for the Way Corps (except Don Wierwille) because LCM said that TWI wasn't going to pay the bill! Same with pets (except Rosalie) and more. For someone purporting to be living on a "need basis, " she continues to be entangled in property ownership. It looks to me like Rosalie isn't burning her bridges to NC, even though she requires others in The Way to burn theirs. Maybe her NC property is an escape pod of sorts if the $hit hits the fan? Rosalie entered the Family Corps in one of the early corps. She came in with two children (2 boys). Rosalie NEVER talks about her background (She is an absolute privacy freak - not that that is wrong - but she doesn't allow other HQ staff to have their privacy). Rosalie NEVER talks about her children or family. NEVER. She NEVER talks about the man that she married - then divorced - then remarried - then divorced again. To the best of my recollections (I may not be accurate, but I think I am), Rosalie has marked and avoided one of her sons. I can verify Linda Z's remark that Rosalie would have her secretaries tell Dr. Wierwille when he called, that she was out of the office, when in fact she wasn't. That fact is know only by a very few at HQ. In planning a Way International web site, it became increasingly apparent that one of the main road blocks to the implementation of a web site was the extreme concern on the part of Rosalie Rivenbark that her name and picture might have to be on the Web site. It was quickly decided that NO pictures of ANY trustees was the best way to go. This was decided in an attempt to keep Rosalie off of the internet. In talks with certain cabinet people at HQ, it was very apparent that Rosalie was desperate that she not featured on the web site. One cabinet person (who knows Rosalie very well)went as far as to say to me - "we don' t want Rosalie's picture and biographical sketch on the Internet because next thing you know, people will start to research her background, then they'll discover her New Bern, NC. connections and then they'll be nosing into all sorts of stuff" [the preceeding is my recollection of what he said, It may not be quoted with 100% accuracy, but it's darn close!] Six months ago, while all at TWI HQ are undergoing extreme austerity measures with the "emergency financial cutbacks," Rosalie saw fit to spend over $20,000 on a sailing boat. Rosalie has been having long- term "free" sailing lessons provided to her by one of the HQ staff people in preparation for his little luxury item. Rosalie has also been having long-term "free" art/painting lessons provided by a HQ staff person. Rosalie who owns her own property close to The Way International uses Way International labor and materials from the Grounds Department in mowing and maintaining her expansive grounds. TWI also take care of ALL her in-home maintenance. Rosalie is very secretive about this practice of using TWI resources for her personal use and has requested some who are aware of this practice to not divulge the knowledge to others. Besides the obvious ethical and moral considerations, her possible personal income tax liability and the possible legal aspects as it impacts TWI are also factors at play in her asking people to not divulge this information concerning this spending of TWI (charity) resources. During the spring and summer months as much as 70 - 95 man hours each weeks (easily!) are spent by paid employees of The Way International maintaining her private home, swimming pool, and grounds. Skilled labor and sevices ranging from grounds care, pest control, home maintenace and repairs, painting and wallpapering, swimming pool care, home cleaning, laundry and cooking are all provided to her by TWI. This practice obviously increases the value of her personal property adn frees up more of her personal money for other uses. All of this utilization of Way International resources and abundant sharing for personal use - while from the other side of her mouth she and the other trustees agressively teach the Way Corps that even the simple act of using a ministry owned pen to use for notetaking in Sunday Service would be nothing short of THEFT! As for Rosalie's vacations with Donna Martindale, they are still the norm. LCM usually goes on a trip with Donna each year, but Donna normally finds time to go on a vacation with Rosalie (without LCM) each year. Rosalie has a very beutifully furnished three bedroom home. In order for it to appear that she is prepared to "share" her home, Rosalie has two Way Corps ladies - Janet Myracle and Sharon Crowther live in her one bedroomed basement. Rosalie enjoys the wonderfully appointed 3 bedroom home all to herself, while giving the impression to outsiders that she is actually sharing the home. In reality - the two "roommates" live in a semi-converted basement. During the workday, Sharon Crowther does ALL of Rosalie' s cooking, cleaning and laundry and homecare. Rosalie Rivenbark is probably the single greatest force in the implementation of the legalistic, bondage and fear based management style that has developed in TWI in the past several years. Rivenbark's role in the direction of TWI is being vastly underestimated. There's a lot more to tell about the secretive trustee, Rosalie Rivenbark, who on occasion is known to greet guests at her front door wearing nothing but her famous smile! ***** Somehow I think you knew I'd have to find time for this one. :)--> I'll post some of what I know firsthand, without the rumors and gossip that abound regarding this person. When I began working in Way Publications, we were indirectly under the thumb of another twi "matriarch," Emogene Axxxx. We had, however, a buffer zone in our Dept. Coordinator, Tom Plain. Although Auntie Em called the shots as they pertained to our dept., some of us didn't take her too seriously; I basically steered clear of her as much as I could and enjoyed the heck out of my first year on staff. The next year it was announced that Rosalie would become the coordinator of Way Publications , with Tom Plain retaining oversight of the printing and finishing work. I cringed when I heard the announcement. Her very voice was like chalk on a blackboard to me. I still remember watching her and Bob Winegarner smiling and being sappy on stage in the Big Tent at some event or another during Corps Week just before she took over Way Pub. and thinking, "Oh, my God. What are we in for? This woman is a phony." I underestimated her. Phoney is way too mild a word. Her middle name suits her well. Life with RR as a dept. coordinator was hell for all but those who liked being told what to do every moment of every day. She nearly had a mutiny on her hands when she tried to force everyone to sign out every time we left the office--whether it was to go to the bathroom or the snack shop or to go discuss an article with someone. Didn't matter. She wanted us to sign out, stating where we were going, on the pretense of needing to know what to tell people if they phoned for us. We had a knock-down, drag-out dept. meeting over that one, and it appeared that Rosalie lost. She gave up the idea of the sign- out sheets, but she had bigger fish to fry. She was just biding her time until she could get rid of everyone in the department who had stood up to her. She succeeded. By the time it was all over, we were practically knocking each other out of the way to get out the door. But back to that a little later. A lot has been speculated and said about Rosalie's relationship with Donna Martindale. I have no firsthand knowledge about any untoward relationship between them. But I do know this: Once Rosalie got her hooks into Donna, Donna changed. Donna was always a shoot-from-the-hip sort of woman, to be sure. She didn't sugar coat things, but she was not a hard woman. She could teach God' s Word in a way that melted hearts and scattered the cobwebs. Her love for God was obvious and contagious. When Donna talked, I usually got blessed and was prompted to think and not just go through the motions. This is a foggy memory, but I seem to recall that VPW initially "assigned" Rosalie to hang out with Donna, to make her more "ladylike." Anyone remember this? I believe that RR had Dr. Wierwille very, very deceived, or he'd never have suggested this. Rosalie had the outward "lady" thing down pat. Always dainty in public, always with that sappy grin. Always following protocal to a T. This little alliance with RR, IMO, was the ruination of Donna Martindale. (Rosalie won't be the last woman to ever deceive a man. One thing women know is when another woman is manipulative and sneaky. Men very often are not on a wavelength to catch on to this. I think VPW was hoodwinked, buying her sweet smile and soft demeanor and what appeared to be her submissive, quiet nature.) I remember so vividly, when Donna started hanging out more and more with RR, thinking, "What in the HELL is that about? Why would someone as sharp as Donna want to hang out with Rosalie. I was shocked. I figured she must be trying to help Rosalie get real. Then I noticed the gradual change. Donna started harping at people in RR's legalistic mode. She was Rosalie's perfect mouthpiece. Her spunky, tell-it-straight, heart-filled manner had gained her a lot of credibility, only now she was using it to spread RR's @#%$ She could get Rosalie's legalistic message out and Rosalie would never have to wipe that $hit-eating grin off her face. RR's perfect patsy! I remember how Donna shouted at the staff women one day, that they oughta be able to keep their houses clean and work full-time at HQ and keep their husbands and kids happy and go to all the meetings and classes and quit flippin' whining about having too much to do. This from a woman with God knows how many nannies and housekeepers. Donna started taking her vacations with RR. They went to Scotland, and they went on shopping excursions, and they went here and there. Never with LCM, but often with Leah and Timmy. And the more Donna was with RR, the harsher and colder and more unlike her former self she became. The change was dramatic and so very sad. Meanwhile, back to my life. I railed against RR's crap for two years. She didn't edge me out right away. She needed me. I was a good editor and I worked hard at it. So she put up with me, too, but I'm convinced she was still biding her time. I was too "vocal" she said. She hadn't heard vocal yet. I was running a "regular" Twig in New Knoxville (as opposed to a "Work Twig"). I loved it. I had local people coming who hadn't been fellowshipping for a long while, and staff people whose "Work Twigs" were as bad as ours were in Way Pub. People were getting blessed and so was I, bigtime! Rosalie told me to stop, because my commitment was to be available at any time of the day or night to my staff assignment. I told her I wouldn' t stop. At the end of two years under RR's regime, three people out of a staff of six editors (not including those who worked exclusively on VPW's books) had had enough of RR. When assignment time came, the three of us all requested to leave the department. RR called us together and said that it couldn' t possibly be God's will for all three of us to leave at once, because it would "decimate editorial." The other two wouldn't budge. I had put my heart and soul into editorial, helping to establish rapport with the various writers for Way Mag and the other publications; helping to establish editorial standards in areas where they'd been lacking. I loved my job. Rosalie said, "We need you to coordinate editorial" She implied that with all three of us leaving, there would be no continuity and no one to raise up the less experienced editors. She asked me to commit to one more year. Like an idiot, even though I cringed at the very thought of another year with the Ice Queen, I agreed to stay another year. I thought I could be a voice amidst all the "yeses" and help keep things running smoothly. That was at Corps assignment time. A couple months later, right before Corps Week, RR had a hush-hush little meeting and put one of her yes-men in charge of editorial. I was ....ed. The only reason I'd agreed to stay was because she'd said editorial would go to hell in a handbasket if I didn't oversee it. Now I find out, before Corps Week is even over, that she' s unilaterally decided to change my freekin' assignment. I said, "Fine. Then I'll still request an assignment change." Nope, that wasn't good enough. What she wanted was to use my knowledge and experience, take away any authority I had within the department and put someone who thought she was the greatest thing since Jesus Christ over me. I marched straight to Bob Moynihan, her Cabinet person (whatever they called Dept. Coordinator's coordinators) and said, "Bob, she kept me here under false pretenses. She lied. She manipulated. And now I'm stuck where I didn't want to be, because of her lies." I requested a meeting with her and Bob, so that I could confront her in the presence of a witness. We set up the day and time for the meeting. She called me in. I said, "Where's Bob?" She said, "Oh, I didn't think we needed him. We can just talk." I said, "No way. I want Moynihan here, to hear every word you say and every word I say." She blithered around and then called him. He said, "Oh, Rosalie told me things were worked out and you didn't need me to meet with you two." I said, "That's a lie." To make a long story short, I confronted her on her manipulation, on her driving away everyone else who ever stood up to her, on her lying. All she could say was, "Oh, Leeyundah, ahm so sorrrah if ah hurt ya feelin's." I said, "For God's sake Rosalie, this isn't about hurt feelings. It's about you lying to me and manipulating me to stay here for one assignment and then changing it on me after all the assignments had been completed." Bob confronted her. She batted her eyes and mouthed her apology for hurting my feelings again. I resigned, effective the end of the calendar year. I got "guilted" into staying until April. And for whoever said that RR and Donna held up LCM during his difficult times after PoP. ..If they did, that was BS on Rosalie's part, too. When her guard was down, her contempt for Craig showed through her sweet, supportive facade. And for all her fawning over VPW and and her public obedience to every word that came out of his mouth. That was @#%$ too. We'd overhear her telling the dept. receptionist, "If Dr. Wierwille calls, tell him you don't know where I am." I have already made this way too long, but I could cite example after example of her manipulation and legalism. Months ago when I asked if anyone had ever heard RR speak in tongues, I wasn't joking around. I meant it. She turned Way Productions into a sappy, white-bread version of its former self. She wormed her way into Donna and LCM's life. She wormed her way into a spot on the Big Three. People want to always talk about how badly Craig has hurt twi, and I've been one of them. At least he started out with some passion for God and some tenderness and some integrity. I never saw any of those things from Rosalie Rivenbark. I saw a cold, calculating, syrupy sweet fox. She was as sweet as could be if you didn't cross her. If you did, you'd be gone. If she couldn't silence you, she'd get rid of you. At least that was one good thing she did for people.

From the depths of the archives: WG, this may shed some light on your question. I apologize for how long it is, but it is very good information. I've posted a lot more on the 'Godly Sorrow' thread of TroubleWine's. While this lawsuit was going on, there were *quite* a few other women lined up behind the Axxxxs who were preparing to bring their own suits against Martindale and the BOT. They were carefully watching the developments as the case progressed. There was plenty of support for Pxxx and Fxxx while the suit was going on. The support was bouying these women who wanted to bring their own cases. When the case settled, these women watched GreaseSpot for the reactinon among the ex-way community and were appalled at the number of people who did NOT support the Axxxxs in their settlement, but instead railed on Pxxx for selling out. There was a horrible backlash of people who had seemed to support the Axxxxs before, who upon learning of the settlement, said some pretty stupid, selfish, and untrue things about Pxxx and Fxxx. I know for a *fact* that it was this lack of support for the Axxxxs among this community that caused these women to DROP their plans. It's hard enough to be brave enough to front the expense, build your case, and bring it to court to be revictimized by the attorneys for the defense. But to then be vilified among those who claimed to be your supporters for settling your case? That's too much to bear. Xxx Thanks for bringing this point out into the open. I totally agree with you. From the very beginning, Pxxx was a true man who stood up for his wife to protect her in every aspect. First he confronted the MOGFOT himself, with a man right outside the other room with a gun. He gave LCM and the BOT every chance to settle this before he filed a lawsuit. If the BOT had agreed, most likely none of us would have ever heard of the problem in the first place. Very plausible. Due to the BOTS own ego's and self grandeurized ideas, they probably never dreamed Pxxx would take it as far as he took it. They thought they were untouchable. Waydale comes onto the scene. Again being the man that he was, he not only protected his wife from the backlash of some of the topics on the forums, but every other victim also. Remember when we all got together with the attorney. We were there to help validate the Axxxx's case. Our experiences with TWI that we would testify about, were to back up and substantiate their claims. I believe he was upfront right from the beginning as to what he was doing. At least in every conversation I ever had with him, there was no doubt in my mind that he wanted truthful, non-imbellished experiences to back him up for his case. I believe that there have been so many very hurtful things done to those that were done in TWI, that when it seemed that someone was actually going to take down these ego-driven, hard hearted Pharisee types, the emotional momentum really picked up and people felt they would be vindicated by proxy. In other words, if the Axxxxs went to court and laid every thing on the line, and TWI went bankrupt or LCM went to prison, that the vindication would be for the entire ex-way community. This is very understandable how this could happen. In my humble opinion, it takes a village to take down a dilapated TWI. I think as a whole, we are all slowly chipping away at the foundation now. It won't be long before the foundation will be washed away. But it is all of us working together and continuing to expose the dastardly deeds of the BOT. It is not one person (and then we put all of our eggs in his basket). I would love to see more women come forth so that those that are still in can see the truth and then be set free. I for one will continue to support anyone who has the gumption to take it on. But no one can fault another. I can say these things cuz..............iamfreenow Xxxx I would love to see those women come forward too. However they have determined that they will not, because they saw the lack of support from the ex-way community in the Axxxx case, once they decided to settle. It's hard enough to stand up and take what the defense attorneys dish out. But it's even harder to see people who swore allegience to you, turn around and blacken your character when they see you have decided to settle out of court. xxx The Axxxxs are only proceeded by Jesus Christ. After Him, then its the ex-twi family that offered me their hearts, hands, and home when I escaped TWI and my brother who traveled over 500 miles to help me move in the middle of the night. I supported the Axxxxs in everyway I could concerning their lawsuit. And I was never critical of their decision to settle out of court. That said?. The women who decided to drop their law suits should not pass the blame on to those who posted criticizing the Axxxxs decision to settle out of court. The number of those that voiced their disappointment with the settlement was relatively few compared to those that rallied to the defense of the Axxxxs. Some of those critical posters have not been heard from since. (Makes you go humm??..) A woman who was victimized by LCM and/or the BOT/RC/LC/BC should follow through on their initial decision to sue. If the voicing of the few malcontents could so easily dissuade someone then it may be best that they not proceed on. The Axxxxs had to withstand a lot worse, pushing the lawsuit as far as they did. It takes courage to do what the Axxxxs did!!! IMHO, I would think that the Axxxxs case settlement would have made it easier for someone to receive a similar settlement from TWI. These women could have, very possibly, brought TWI to its knees. I don?t think the income of TWI is enough to keep paying out settlements similar to the Axxxxs. To anyone that dropped their lawsuit, I am truly sorry you were abused by twi and I pray that you find healing, peace and joy in the life that is ahead of you. But please don?t live your life wondering what may have happened if you had pressed on against twi and blaming Greasespot posters for not doing so. xxxx Very true, because you have to be really tough skinned to go up against those defense attorneys. I remember one of them called me prior to the trial and introduced himself. He was very friendly and he asked me if I had ever been to court. I told him I had and either he or I said that he would be the one calling me a liar. Thats his job. When I would be on the stand it would be his job to discredit my testimony. I didn't have nearly at stake what the Axxxx's did, so I can only imagine what had been going on in Fxxx's mind. I was merely making an observation of the dynamics that were going on leading up to the trial. I was not judging those dynamics. If anyone thinks I was I sincerely apologize. It is not up to me to tell you what you should do. I certainly was not trying to. xxx Having been involved in a number of issues involving employees and management, when it comes to actually taking action versus talking about the injustice, you will most likely go it alone. There was no union, so it was employees confronting management about problems we saw. Every worker had the same complaints about the boss and all said they wanted to bring the issues up. We decided to bring the issues up at a monthly company meeting and I volunteered to spearhead it. As I began bringing the grievances up I was sure I could count the other employees support. To my dismay absolutely no one backed me up. When asked by the boss if they had the same complaints as I, they all said "it wasn't a really big issue with them". I felt what a waste of my time to bring it up and deserted by everyone. For a woman to go before a public court and disclose events of a sexual nature requires much support. If she thinks that support, real or imagined, vaporizes it can be devastating. I can see how some would mistaken posts on GS for support. Many of the posts are very adimant about the wrongs done by TWI and support the idea of justice via the courts. Obviously some woman were inclined to pursue this avenue because of perceived support here, but realized it really isn't there after the response to the Axxxx's actions. xxx I don't know if those very early posts are still on the pages on GS or if they have been removed. But for weeks, there were people who did *nothing* but denigrate Pxxx Axxxx for his decision. And these were people who had formerly sworn their support. Thankfully not everyone behaved this way. But a good deal of them did. Enough to convince several women with STRONG cases not to pursue them. The fact that they dropped their pursuit is not a reflection on the strength of their cases, but *rather* the strength of the venom aimed at the Axxxxs for settling their case. It's bad enough to have to stand up to the defense attorneys, but it's worse to be knifed in the back by people who you thought were your supporters. After having freshly experienced being knifed in the back by people you thought were your friends at TWI, how many of you would truly be willing to go through that all over again with people who have proved how fickle they can be? And in a very public fashion?

(1)The claim of direct authority from God, rather than testing things by the Word. How many times have we heard the WC yell at us because ?THEY? know what is best for our lives? THEY are standing in the gap for us. Don?t we ?earnestly desire the best gifts? and whey aren?t we believing God for them to be making the best decisions for our lives? (2) The command is to "submit to me," rather than "I will serve you." How many WC houses have YOU cleaned? How many WC have cleaned YOUR house? How many WC have you babysat for? How many WC have babysat for your children? How many of you have had the responsibility of making sure the TEACHER?S room was perfect and guarded from lowly wayfers disturbing the TEACHER? (3) The method of leadership is to "order" people around, rather than to appeal for them to do the right things. All guised under ?Would you be blessed to?.? or spittle in your face, you moron? (4) There is a dominating, "pushy" drive instead of a dependence on God to direct. God won?t even spit in your direction if you don?t?.(fill in the blank with the most absurd request) We had to give our schedules and our budgets and our out of town plans down to the hour to our leadership because we were to depend on them depending on God instead of us depending on God. They substituted themselves for God. (5) There is a sense of control, rather than a sense of support. A sense of abuse and inability to make decisions would be more like it. (6) A gift is exploited so that others are made to feel dependent on it. I don?t understand this one. (7) There is an inflexibility - "don't question me" - "don't touch the Lord's anointed." Write down your questions and they will be answered during the class. That verse about not accusing the elders in the church but buy two or three and it was basically perverted to ?don?t question the elders?. Don?t question the doctrine. OR if you question it ? we will ignore it and you will eventually drop it because you don?t want to get into trouble. ( There is unapproachability and intimidation - the "aura" around the leader keeps the followers in "awe." LCM and VP worship trickled down to worship and reverence for anyone WC. (9) There emerges an organization built around a man and his peculiar emphases instead of around Christ and His Word. See the VP worship threads around here. ?If VP said it I believe it ? that settles it? The word of VP is the word of God mentality. Lots of that about LCM, too. Remember in the class he was teaching the ?cross over? aspect of Eve being a lesbian and said, ?Do you see it? Well, I do? and laughed like it didn?t matter if we saw it or not ? we were to just believe him. (10) There will be cyclical challenges to the authority figure (which are immediately and forcefully purged). Cyclical challenges my a** - there are constant challenges to the abuse and perversion in TWI and those brave souls are constantly ousted and blasphemed and slandered by those in TWI. People will believe their WC who have been in their area for maybe a year or two over people they have been friends or relatives with and very near and dear to for many, many years. (11) There is more concern for maintaining the authoritarian structure than there is for caring about the people in it. At least in the far past of TWI they actually did things to help people. Didn?t VP pay for people to stay in hotels one year because everyone was snowed in at a Word in Business conference? Bought plane tickets for people to go to funerals of loved ones when the money wasn?t there? Didn?t they used to pay for the large meeting charges at hotels and other places instead of charging a ?facility fee? and then having the believers bring food, clean and set up and then take down meetings? People have been M&A for refusing to declare loyalty to the BOD. HOW DO THESE PEOPLE SLEEP AT NIGHT??????

These sound WAY TOO FAMILIAR (1) The claim of direct authority from God, rather than testing things by the Word. Many today have set "personal" revelation and experience above the final authority of God's Word. When this occurs there is no longer any basis for ascertaining the will of God, as one would not be able to discern truth from error because the standard is "personal" rather than the Word of God. (2) The command is to "submit to me," rather than "I will serve you." (3) The method of leadership is to "order" people around, rather than to appeal for them to do the right things. (4) There is a dominating, "pushy" drive instead of a dependence on God to direct. (5) There is a sense of control, rather than a sense of support. (6) A gift is exploited so that others are made to feel dependent on it. (7) There is an inflexibility - "don't question me" - "don't touch the Lord's anointed." ( There is unapproachability and intimidation - the "aura" around the leader keeps the followers in "awe." (9) There emerges an organization built around a man and his peculiar emphases instead of around Christ and His Word. (10) There will be cyclical challenges to the authority figure (which are immediately and forcefully purged). (11) There is more concern for maintaining the authoritarian structure than there is for caring about the people in it.

Awww, Wayfer, TWI people HAVE to have an answer for everything. I think it was Hope who started a thread on the double standards and inconsistencies in TWI thinking. I'll see if I can find it. If you are outside the "household" and something happens bad to you it's because you aren't in THE ONE AND ONLY HOUSEHOLD OF GOD. If you are inside the "household" and something bad happens to you and your leadership doesn't like you - it's because you "missed it" somewhere and because you are not living where God answers prayer. If you are inside the "household" and something bad happens to you and your leadership LIKES you - it's because you are "standing for God" and the adversary doesn't like anyone in the "household" so he's always on the lookout to attack. If you are inside the "household" and you ARE leadership but you don't like your peons - bad stuff happens to you because your peons aren't praying for you or they aren't "OBEY"ing your God-given orders. If you are inside the "household" and you are leadership and you like your peons - bad stuff happens because you are "standing in the gap" for these poor, ignorant souls who just can't seem to get it right. SH** doesn't just happen in the "household" -- there's always the "Achan in the camp" excuse to fall back on, too. This is just one of the "rules" TWI adheres to. Your friend is merely following the "rules"....rules set by the BOD, past and current.

Fresh, I miss your posts when you aren't around. Good to see you! I agree completely with your observation. It's even written: 1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; twi is confounded all over and it's by the very peons they pee on!

Thanks, Lindy. I'm sure that wasn't easy to write and, if anyone can understand how someone could be so full of anger, it's those of us here. I'm glad things have worked out for you. I'm hanging around hoping my family will wake up. I really don't want to leave witouth my spouse and kids, but if push came to shove... knowing what I know now.... I couldn't eat s*** at another meeting either. P-Mosh, thanks for your input as well. I'm always glad to see you and Lindy have posted when I get on here.

Zix, Didn't one of lcm's classes report that blood never passes from the father? or was it the other way around? Anyone remember which syllabus and I'll go look it up. Suz, Rafael has done a great job going through the collaterals as well. It may be on his website or in the archives of the doctrinal section.

Paul was still in Florida on the coast somewhere cleaning movie screens and travelling all over the US last I heard (a few months ago). He was never home for having to travel all the time, but still the bc there under bob moneyhand.