Listener

Yeah, I'd like to know too....although I have had a few giggles guessing.

I knew him personally, also, and that was almost am understatement, WW. He always "knew" exactly how to crush a person, and rip out their heart, beat them into submission, and then, mock the quivering remains in full view of all present. And that's putting it nicely!!

May I suggest that this comparison seems to hinge on keeping vp's teachings as the focus of the investigation. In that case, yes, the results are the same. I chose to throw them out and approach the learning process independent of TWI and vp altogether. That, I think, is the best approach if one wants to avoid the TWI lies.

editted to correct emotion.

Not usually. Except when it's slowly poisoning your thinking processes without your realizing it....like carcinogens in food.

Oldie, I, for one, agree that throwing all TWI teachings out is not going to solve anything.....IF your reason for doing so is because vp was a bad boy. But, my reasons, as I stated in my earlier post were quite different. I believe that vp subverted the meaning and intent of God's scriptural concepts to serve his own purposes. And because of that, I believe that TWI's, and vp's, teachings are contaminated and poisoned by this self-serving approach to "rightly-dividing" the Word. I don't feel any need or desire to rehash ol' vp's work in order to straighten it out...it's just too much of a tangled mess. If you want to hang onto what he taught, go right ahead. That's your right and priviledge.

I think there is one simple point that is frequently overlooked when discussing vp's "teaching" ministry. He often used scripture to backup and justify HIS statements...not the other way around. He would make unsubstantiated statements, then use scripture to explain it. He would teach staff and corps "life lessons" using scriptural references to justify his reasoning. More often than not, the approach he used was to use the Word to backup what HE said, or believed. Oh, he would start off quoting verse after verse to set the spiritual mood, but by the conclusion, HIS premise was supported by the Word...not the Word being supported, or upheld, through his teaching. Because of this approach, he often infiltrated the logic systems of the believers with hidden meanings and concepts, as have been discussed before. THESE are the things that made me mistrust even the "Word" he taught. How on God's green earth could I trust that what he taught was actually "rightly-divided"?!?!?!? I could not!! I still can't. It's been said before...one can prove anything one wants to, by using scripture quotes. Of course, to the few who truely study scripture, that effort would likely be fruitless. But, as far as the common man/youth was concerned, who would know any different? That was vp's "ace in the hole", his "open door" into our lives...our ignorance of the Word...which he declared HE could teach us "rightly divided". So, where does that leave me now! If I can't trust the Word I was taught, or the principles, or even the "common sense" lessons I learned, because of the real potential of faulty underlying logic, what am I left with. Well, the only solution I could think of was to trash everything TWI taught...as much as is humanly possible...and after a considerable time, start fresh with a meek heart just reading the bible and praying to God to teach me what HE wanted me to know and live by. I no longer trust any man to know what God's will is for me. I believe God can, and does, use any available means to teach, help, inform, heal and meet the needs of, His kids. That often involves others' in the body of Christ, but NEVER in a MOG capacity. God already has THE Man of God, Jesus Christ, employed in that position...and I think that is a permanent position. So, I have my Saviour, brother, and confidant, Jesus, to guide me, and his Father, God Almighty to back him up, as the leaders in my life. If that's not good enough, then I guess I'm doomed...because I'm sticking with them, come hell or high water!

Not at all, exie. It is an interesting subject. My viewpoint..... I was on the receiving end of his rath many times. Even when I would explain how the facts showed my actions to be correct, he would flame on about intentions and motivations and such...but would NEVER appologize or admit I (or anyone else) was right. He would mearly slide off into some undefineable logic (read spiritual discernment) that overrode the situation such that I had to be reproved anyway. He could be unreasonably vicious and heartless. And don't think for a minute that I am bitter. I'm not...I resolved that issue years ago. I'm angry that there are those who seem to think he was some important spiritual leader, or a nice old man. Well, he was not. He was an oportunist who, in his religious field of work, was smart enough to recognize the ground floor opportunity laying before him, which was to take advantage of the Jesus movement and the honest work of other learned researchers. He built his ministry by stealing the efforts of others and claiming them as his own. In that, he never changed. He stole from everybody...in many ways...as many of the GSers know.

Of all the times I heard vp mention other authors and what they wrote, it was always done in such a way as to compliment vp in comparison, or some how make it sound as if they were argeeing with vp's researcch/ideas. His ego knew no bounds. If he couldn't get around the fact that someone else said/wrote something profound before him, he would change a bit here, or a bit there, and restate it as if his version was most correct and the other was "oh, so close". That's why I don't trust ANYTHING the man taught. His way of twisting truth was so disguised that few could see it for what it was. His "widom" about life, in general, to me, is suspect, too. His motivations were totally selfish and self-serving, but he hid them behind words that he knew we would swallow, hook, line and sinker. He was a master manipulator...both of people AND of the ideas of others'.

Ahh, yes. A second happy Birthday thread! Does that make you twice as old??????? All the best to you, Free, always.

Happy Birthday from me too, Free. Though new here, I always love reading your words. You are an inspiring person, indeed. I wish you every best-thing possible for your life. Live long and prosper! :D

Yes, Happy Easter everyone. One of the GREAT days of the year. He rose so I could rise, too. THAT makes for a CELEBRATION for sure!! To me, THIS DAY is really THANKSGIVING DAY!! Have fun, all.

IMHO, an important aspect of setting boundaries is not to put ourselves in situations in which our boundaries are vulnerable to being breached (if it can be avoided). We have to learn to allow someone else handle those situations, not us...at least until we can grow stronger and shore up those boundaries.

I like that perspective, Ham. Thanks for the insight.

Weird as he!!. Glad you stopped it.

Pond!!! What are you trying to pull here!!! Everybody knows your real hair color is NOT BLONDE!!!! :biglaugh: You are, of course, correct about the internet. Thanks for the reminder.

You are right, way2much. I'm done playing their game of bait and switch. If they were willing to have an intelligent, civil, discussion, good, I'd participate. Until then, I'm ignoring them and their foolishness. I'll respond to the others in this thread.

No, Jean, you continue to prove what I said in post #57.

Well, Ham, as far as your brain goes.....uhhh......well.......OK, it's a little funny. But, in a nice way. I remember vp bragging about how he had contingency plans in the event of nuclear war or a major catastrophe. But, I never saw or heard of any evidence that indicated that it was anything more than a "plan". He loved to brag about "off the wall" stuff that he figured out, or had received revelation about...like how to set snow on fire...no kidding. I do know he, and the BOT stockpiled tons of money, though. So, knowing him, the "plan" was probably to escape, in that big mixmaster he called an airplane, to a secluded resort and wait for the smoke to clear. I can almost hear him now......"Believers???.....oh, yeah,....well.....they can believe their way out of it, I taught them how!!".....Ha!! <_<

I'm sorry to hear about your marriage. Some of us have been down that road, too. But, you're among good people here....so, enjoy the company. So, hey, man, a hearty welcome to you, man. Man, it's cool you stopped in, man. :B) OK, I'll stop. But, be warned.....this group might poke a little goodhearted at your screen name, man. So, like, want a cup o' mud, man? I'm buyin'! And the pastries are to die for!!! :D

And with that response you prove my statement to be true.

Thank you, for proving my statement. The above quote speaks volumes as to who you really are.

I'm beginning to think that Jean and John are enjoying stirring things up around here. They respond to logic and common sense with inane, disjointed remarks that insense others. There are no real discussions with them, no exchange of ideas, or even respectful responses from them...just jabs, insults, and jumps to illogical conclusions. This, IMHO, is troll-like behaviour...baiting posters to watch the flurry of activity while sitting back and snickering as the GSCers' responses roll in. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

Now, THAT'S the state of mind I came to recognize and despise while at TWI. The judgemental, insulting comments, intended to aggressively display superiority. I'm beginning to think John and Jean are getting a kick out of "shaking things up" arround here...rather troll-like behaviour, it seems. They sure seem to enjoy being confrontational...another TWI characteristic.

:biglaugh: Good one, Ham! :biglaugh: