Listener

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: I love it!!!! T-Bone rocks!!

She muzzles the people like oxen. To keep them from spewing the toxin. So, the secrets are kept, That the way is inept, And requires all those shots of botoxin. Still the secrets got out about sinnin', And the stealin', destroyin' and killin'. While they crapp on the flock, The Saviour they mock, And say everyone else is a lyin'.

You leaving will make me sad!! If you want that on your conscience, then you might have trouble sleeping at night from the guilt!! Seriously, please don't go. I appreciate your views and honesty. I'm just a newbie here at GS (not to TWI stuff), and have seen some who will get rough at the drop of a hat. So what! Everybodies opinion won't agree with everybody else's, you know that. But, the value of this forum is that we get to have our say. And in the course of time opinions can change. I've seen that already in the short time I've been here. So, please reconsider. Your voice is needed here. Your opinions are needed here. YOU are needed here. :wub:

Welcome to the GS, anothen. I appreciate your story and, though I've not walked in your shoes, I'm glad you had the courage to tell it. That's a big step in deliverance. I hope the GS family can be of help in some way. We're here whenever you need to talk, or need support. May I also say, never give in to the feelings of worthlessness. You are NOT worthless! You ARE precious to the Father. He loves you now, where you're at, and always has His helping hand extended to you, NOT the finger of guilt. You're always welcome here.

Freshness, huh?? Well, I'd get slapped if I got fresh, wouldn't I?? (just kidding)

Hey everybody, does anyone remember this one? vp claimed that God showed him how to set snow on fire...as in lighting a campfire. He also said God swore him to secrecy because if the information got into the wrong hands it could destroy the earth. Wouldn't that make him the "real deal"? I'm not making this up. I heard him say it with my own two ears. I'm no scientist, but this sounds pretty bizzare to me.

Yes, vp did some horendous things to God's kids. no doubt. But, my opinion of him is a result of comparing him to Jesus Christ...and I don't mean to sound all religious here. But vp's life becomes glaringly ungodly in comparison. Of course, we all fall short of being the godly people the Father would have us to be, but, IMHO, vp broke most, if not all, of the principles the Word speaks of regarding leadership of the church...let alone as to being one of the members in particular. I hear all these accounts of abuse as, primarily, an alert to pray for those harmed and to reach out a hand of friendship and love, not to amass a list of offences against vp. vp's made that list all on his own...God doesn't need my assistance for that. What I can do regarding vp is warn others who might fall prey to his legacy's traps. Therein is the value I see in posting these personal accounts. Beyond that, I only try to point people to Jesus Christ as THE leader, and the ONLY one to be followed.

Johniam, it seemed to me to be more than just a re-quote of rascal's sig. If that assumption was wrong, then I stand corrected and I sincerely appologize to Jeaniam for my insolent remark, and for jumping to an inaccurate assumption. My question was based out of curiosity about your doctrinal basis as you seemed to be saying TWI's doctrines were sound and right. Your response was adequate for that purpose. I saw no need to persue it any further. I, personally, find several of TWI's foundational scriptual interpretations flawed, inaccurate, and misleading. I'm not a researcher, and can't debate in much depth in that arena. My issues are more in the area of vp twisting the simplest, foundational, biblical truths to support vp's ideas of biblical truth, and right and wrong, in general. If, in fact, those foundational concepts are flawed, then anything built on them would, of course, be flawed. I don't presume to instruct anyone at all, nor do I think that I have some corner on truth. I simply present my views and beliefs, based on what I believe to be true, and enjoy the interplay of ideas that takes place here on GS. Opposing opinions stimulate my thought processes, and I think that's very healthy. Re-examining one's beliefs can provide the opportunity to come to a better understanding of the truth. Just because the subject is biblical, doesn't mean I can't, or shouldn't, consider other opinions.

That comment was childish and immature. Are you trying to prolong this senseless name calling to avoid discussing issues and ideas? That technique was frequently used by TWI leadership to dismiss critics and discredit their points of view.

Seems to me that's what they did all along...in one way or another. :sleep1:

The best advice I can think of is to realize that what you see is what you get. I mean don't think/expect that he'll change, or that you'll change him when it comes to personality or basic attitudes. At that age, it's near impossible to relearn behavioural basics. As washingtonweather said, you're both set in your ways. Aside from that, pay attention. Speak up when something really irks you. Deal with it immediately when possible. If either of you just bury it, it will most likely fester and erupt later all out of proportion. And pay attention to how he handles pressure and adversity. Those can be very revealing moments. I wish you the best. It's an exciting time, for sure.

There once was a Rosie and Donner Of each other they couldn't be fonder They slipped off in the night and to everyone's fright By fondling they grew even fonder

I liked that. I've had my fill of organized this and organized that. And, i will admit that finding truth is a challenge worth persuing. But one must do the work of searching in order to find it. Organizations, IMHO, are attractive because they offer the "truth" all packaged up for me, nice and neat, so I don't have to look very far, or even use my brain!! Thinking for myself, then, becomes unnecessary....and therein lies the trap! There's always someone willing to tell you what to think. <_<

And in my opinion.....don't think for a minute that the "wrong doctrine" was only in the teachings and scriptures he expounded. He instilled subtle. unspoken, attitudes and reasonings that were contrary to God Word...like neglecting to assert the importance of Jesus Christ's purpose and position in the Body of Christ while promoting his own importance as THE MOG. The most of the other "leadership" simply imitated vp (in every way possible) instead of Jesus Christ.

Precisely, Bolshevik. For some, I think that's the best way to recover one's footing...especially where questionable foundations are concerned. Unfortunately there are those who are not willing, for whatever reasons, to inspect, let alone rebuild, their "wood pile".

If rosie could speak to the masses She'd make 'em enroll for the classes She'd teach 'em real good With a spoon made of wood Applied to their rosie red a$$es

Johniam, are you now saying that TWI's doctrines are just as "God breathed" as the rest of the Word of God because vp taught them?

Johniam, you say men taught you your belief system, but yet it's not based on men. How can you be so sure that these men taught you correctly? Could you elaborate on how TWI doctrine works? I ask because I've believe that some of their core doctrinal teachings are quite flawed. Maybe you only accepted the ones that worked, and discarded the rest. I don't know. I'm just very curious about your statements and would like to hear some examples of what worked for you, and why.

There once was a guy named waysider Who met an old dude playing git-tar He said "The blues are my basis And that's just the way 'tis" Now this rhymes with hypocatastasis I know, I know it's a big stretch.....but waysider made me do it!! :biglaugh:

Nicely said, blarney. I agree. I believe the means by which God teaches us is through Jesus Christ...each according to his need, as it were. I think that's an individual, and personal, walk. Each doing what he does best, for the sake of the other saints and mankind.

Thank you, Ham. I was just thinking of the old adage...Pride goeth before a fall. It seems to me, to be a natural tendency for humans to like to have a "claim to fame", so to speak...something they can take personal pride in. That in itself isn't evil, or wrong at all, but if not balanced with humility, it can grow out of control, resulting in some pretty devastating situations for all concerned.

I think it's the multi-million dollar organization that we've come to take for granted that is the stumbling point. It's usually headed by someone who is thought to be a great teacher. And in order to get his message out to the world, he needs this big organization. Why? Because HE has to be the one doing all the teaching. It's HIS ministry. After all, HE got the calling. I further think that God's intended method was for one, who he called to teach, to fully instruct a small committed group, then members of that group each fully instruct another small group. Then those fully instruct more small groups. Etc., etc., etc. It's pretty hard to instill that fire in someone's soul to be a teacher, by teaching only from a pulpit to thousands...but all those collection plates produce a heck of a lot of cash!! It may be the modern way, but I don't think it's God's way. Just my opinion, folks.

Good point, Mr. Hammeroni. I think these people are caught up in the same thinking that the Pharisees were. Seeking after their own importance...the pride thing. It's a sad state of affairs, indeed. Celebrity can be very intoxicating...and even addictive.

Yes, it's sad that all that effort and giving seems to have been stolen, but God sees the intents of our heart. Isn't that where the rubber meets the road.

I mostly agree, Bolshevik. I think whatever "good things" were supposedly taught by TWI's MOG were so intertwined with erroneous doctrine that I find it extremely difficult to trust what was taught. I don't trust any of their teachings to be error free...and I don't mean nit-picking errors. They led the individual to believe that HE, the individual, was to be the beneficiary of the operation of God's power. They raised holy heck about Jesus not being God, but then pushed Jesus aside when it came to his importance in the Body of Christ. They replaced Jesus Christ with the concept of the MOG being the authority figure in a believer's life. Well, Jesus Christ is the master key to releasing the power of God, not some MOG. Without Jesus Christ, the Word doesn't make sense. vp wouldn't let even Jesus Christ interfere with his MOGship. THAT'S pathetic. The way I see it, everything that Jesus did was to benefit others, not himself. So then, we get born again and suddenly we are supposed to use that power to benefit ourselves and get what WE want? And also use it to control those around us through revelation? That's illogical, and in my opinion, wrong. I think we're supposed to imitate Jesus walk, not invent a new one. Didn't he spend his life in service to OTHERS, not himself? That's my take on it, anyway. And these are just my opinions...I don't mean to be preachy. Sorry if it comes off that way. :)