Listener

Hey, rascal!! Happy Birthday....and I DO mean HAPPY!! Isn't it great to be 29!! Let's have a PARTY!!!

Yeah, I'm past poo-pooing anyone else's beliefs. I don't know squat about past lives. I DO know that two-way-whistling is fun...especially at partys! Is there any reference to reincarnation in the bible? Never thought about it.

Well, Ham, that IS very strange and bizzare! I would never have thought you, of all people, would have such a thing in your past, much less believe in it. It must cause a bit of turmoil for you presently. But, I must come clean, and admit that I, too, can whistle while breathing in or out. There I said it! I feel cleansed and free!! As far as the other things about past lives....don't know.....maybe I never had one? :huh: (j/k) Actually, I never put much stock in reincarnation. Never read up on it either, though. This should be an interesting discussion.

Hi there, freelady, and welcome to GS. I hope you will take some time to do a little reading of the material on the home page here at GS. Running PF@L for people new to the Word will expose them to some significant errors. You might want to reconsider. That class is not what TWI said it was, nor is it what we thought it was. (I first took it in 73) Of course, there is a lot of scripture referenced, and that's nice, but the conclusions drawn from them are often misconstrued and downright wrong. PLEASE rethink running it for people new to the Word. I know I wouldn't want to feel responsible for someone being led astray from the truth of God's Word...and running PF@L would be doing just that. I STRONGLY advise that you study it yourself first and compare it with the articles on the GS home page.

Web-o-phobes? Absolutely. If they had an interactive website, people would have to maintain it, and they would receive emails...nasty emails. Not to mention viruses. I imagine they still ban members from accessing the web. They would have to actually overhaul their doctrines, make appologies, accept criticism, and communicate with other people if they wanted to use the web for outreach. Naw, they aren't going to do that. I think the trustees are content to spend the money salted away in the past (and what little may be trickling in from abs) to maintain their standard of living. They don't want to rock the money-boat, nor, GOD FORBID, do the intense work of renewing their stance on biblical doctrines and teachings! The current trustees aren't going to try anything even remotely risky. Everything about TWI presently smacks of laziness and complacence. They just don't want to, or are afraid to, make any significant changes that would cause the appearance of discrediting the memories of vp...he's their only claim to fame! <_<

Well, it's back up now. Looks like they did some upgrades. Copyright now says 2007. Still the same old cr@p, though.

Well, they're based in Nashville, according to the "contact us" info. Looks like and ex-wafer is running an on-line bookstore. Not surprising to see lots of music by ex-wayfers there. There are still ex-way musicians active in producing tapes and CDs of their music. They may have a deal with TWI to sell the various books and such. Maybe they are affiliated?

THAT was a big nutshell, topoftheworld!!

I just want to say Thanks, Mark, for starting this topic. I've never been one to do much research...I just read the bible a lot. These links and software are just what I needed to get me interested is deeper study. I'm off to the races! Many thanks!!

You know you are in a cult when: You are taught to keep the "trap door" closed so the adversary can't get you, only to find out he has access to your life through the leadership!!!

The USPS may be greedy and fiscally irresponsible, but they aren't stupid. <_< If they turned back items for insufficient postage on the first day, they'd cause such backlash of angry voters that they'd get their buts handed to them. They'll let $0.39 stamped mail go for a few days, maybe a week or so. All this rate change and restructuring is due to so many business using electronic/web document transmission methods nowadays...and, of course, the USPS has to raise rates to stay viable. God forbid they should do something to increase efficiency instead!!

Phalatalist? Have you seen a doctor for that condition, coochef?? (j/k)

I've had those large capsules...you know the clear ones that get sticky if they get wet?...get stuck on the way down. What's bad is when they dissolve right there! Major YUCK!! Glad you're OK, mstar1.

:biglaugh: Good grief!! Glad that's not a frequent-flyer route!! :biglaugh:

WIB - Word In Business(?) HFC - Household Family Corps(?) WD40 - (this one I do know) - WD40 stands for Water Displacement, formulation #40. I sometimes get lost in the acronyms too. Being a tech, there are a million of 'em!

Yeah, it's easy to confuse Eyes and me. She's pretty and I'm not!

Happy birthday, Suda. So, you are now what?.....89 or 90 now?? Then again, you're only as old as you feel. So, that would make you...what??......16?? (j/k) Have a terrific day and a better tomorrow!

I'm rather new here, but I've come to respect your input and reasonong. You add valuable insight, dear one, and I will miss you too. We all have to do what we believe is best. I respect your decision, but wish it could be otherwise. I hope for the very best for you and yours....you're in my prayers.

Very good, Sudo. Your wit is very enLIGHTening. ;) Didn't lcm say that he could discern old light from new light? Or got new light about the old light? :unsure: All I know is that if you stuck his finger in an electrical socket, his forehead would light up! Glad TWI removed that bulb when is blew up! Now they have one of those new two-way bulbs. :huh:

Ham, this behaviour didn't originate with loy, vp started it with the concept of being "out of fellowship", or "off the Word". loy just took it to the extreme. After all, he had to prove his worthiness and that his spirituality justified his inheritance of the throne. Isn't it interesting that they felt deserving of placing themselves in the seat of judgement? They not only usurped the place of Jesus Christ in the believers' lives, but put themselves in God Almighty's place as the judges of the thoughts and intents of our hearts!!

Hmmm. In light of the previous posts, it seems to me that we may be confusing the conscience with, or lumping it together with, the mind. I think the conscience is the place in our mind where the basic, rudimentary, realization of right and wrong comes from. Learning the application of the concepts of right and wrong through childhood, for instance, is an activity taking place in the mind, a learned behaviour based on external input, not in the conscience. Learned behaviour will naturally vary with the culture, environment, parents, religious affiliation, etc. But the fundamental concepts of right and wrong are universal, being based in the conscience. The conscience would be the source whereby a person instinctively senses the moral implications of a given action or thought. Through a persons lifetime, the mind can be taught to support or deny these implications of right and wrong, but they would still persist, though possibly silenced. If the mind is taught to totally suppress the conscience's input, the conscience could be refered to as being "seared", or cauterized. Along with this cauterization the applications of right and wrong, learned throughout one's life, could also be crushed...rendering a completely amoral mind. But, with only the suppresion of the conscience, a mind could become reliant upon only that which it was taught as right and wrong. This would account for behaviours exhibited in TWI where a person was commanded to perform an action, for instance, believed to be morally wrong, but which the person willingly carried out due to being taught that such action was correct. This confusing behaviour...morally wrong, yet the right thing to do...could, then, be the result of the conscience being surpressed...and in the extreme, actually seared. I think this suppresion happens gradually, over an extended period of time, and conversely, could be healed gradually, over a period of time (barring a miracle such as Paul's being blinded). Gradually comming to the realization of the wrongs done at the hands of TWI leadership might be an example of this healing conscience. Couple this with input from the Word and, not only the conscience could become whole again, but the mind would re-learn the application of right and wrong thinking....the end goal being a fully renewed mind. Hmmmm......still trying to fit the pieces together in this puzzle called life. :)

Congrats, Free. You're doing better than I did.....course, back then we had to use an abacus and parchment paper! Best wishes to ya'.

Thanks for the kind words, Mr. T. This topic has, for some reason, really captured my minds attention. Between reading posts, bible reading and rumaging through thoughts, I haven't stopped thinking about this stuff. There must be something here that I have need to understand moreso than the myriad of other topics I've read here on GS. I'm not completely sure what "that something" is. Just gonna keep plugging away...gotta find that puzzle piece, doncha know!

The searing analogy, I believe, refers to a procedure whereby an open wound is sealed by applying a red hot metal instrument to the wound, thereby melting the flesh and effectively closing the wound, preventing further blood loss or contamination. In the example from 1 Tim 4:2 the conscience is "seared with a the hot iron" thereby sealing it off, preventing it's interaction with the rest of the person's mind. Therefore person would no longer be "bothered" by their conscience. I don't think this refers to the conscience itself changing. edited to correct grammar.

Many thanks to everyone for all the excellent input in this thread. Here are some ideas I’ve put together so far, which have been inspired by the bible, postings here (especially T-Bone’s), and my own thoughts collected over the last 34 years of being born again, and my own readings. This subject has been a major curiosity to me for a very long time. No one has ever been willing to even discuss it. (I think because no one ever knew how to handle it) I think it is very important, and very available, to understand these kinds of foundational aspects of our spiritual life. We’re not dealing with any spiritual taboos, or secrets here…at least the bible doesn’t refer to them as such. So, this inquiring mind wants to dig as deep as possible to uncover the answer. I think God gave us these amazing minds of ours’ for a specific reason….to find out about Him and His knowledge. Man caused the loss of spirit, and man had to recover it. Well, God made it stupid simple for us to regain our spirit nature, through His son’s life, death and resurrection. Now it’s up to us to take it from there and learn to live, as he wants us to. OK, below I’ve listed what I’ve come up with so far. I’d appreciate any input or thoughts. I’m not claiming any particular insight, just trying to condense my thoughts into some reasonable structure for the sake of discussion. Have at it! Heart – That part of the human mind intended to contain the spirit God. It’s where God’s spirit dwells when we’re born again. Without the spirit, that is, while still a natural man, it serves only as the conscience, containing rudimentary understanding of right and wrong, but not the spiritual understanding lost by Adam and Eve, or the ability to discern spiritual matters and their import. Soul – The basic human life force, which is not spirit based. It is immortal and individual to the person. Mind – It is the seat of human reason, understanding, emotion and will. It generates thoughts and ideas based upon 5-senses input. It contains the Heart. Strength – The ability to put thought into action through the use of the body. Can refer to many mind-based attributes such as the will and the emotions, but is ultimately demonstrated only by the actions of the body. Understanding – The ability of the mind to mingle input, from whatever source, with current knowledge, contained in the mind, and thusly, make judgments or decisions based upon the resulting thoughts. Conscience would then seem to be that part of the mind, which governs moral judgments. Based upon the above definitions, it would seem the conscience would actually be that which the bible refers to as the Heart. I don’t think the conscience can learn or be taught, as the mind can learn and be taught. I think it is what it is from birth. Before the new birth, OT revelation was given to people from God through their 5-senses. They saw, felt, heard, tasted or smelled input from God, which they received through these senses and then processed with their mind into action, or inaction. After the new birth, man had the ability to receive input from God via the spirit created in his Heart. He could then perceive information from God, bypassing the 5-senses, via his spirit, and that information can then be processed by his mind, resulting in ensuing action or inaction. It would seem to me that Heart is equivalent to conscience, if not equal to it. Without spirit, it acts as a rudimentary moral compass for the 5-senses man…the residual effect of once containing spirit. With spirit living in it, it becomes the mechanism whereby spirit communication from God is communicated to the mind of man. The conscience then becomes the vehicle for “voice” of God that we listen for. Because of our free will, in either case, spirit filled or not, man is able to choose to ignore the conscience. Doing so will eventually dull the recognition of it, and consistently ignoring it will eventually cause the complete breakdown of that input (seared conscience) resulting in reliance upon our own 5-senses reasonings…wouldn’t that, pretty much, return us to a worse state than a 5-senses man starts with? On the other hand, cultivating the conscience improves one’s recognition of its input. But, how does one cultivate it? By paying attention to it, listening for it, and acting upon it’s input. The only difference here, between natural man and spirit-filled man, is the content, and source, of the information. The input from the 5-senses man’s conscience is limited to pretty basic right and wrong. The spirit-filled man has the advantage of God’s input to greatly enhance this input. One more thing, I don’t think the conscience itself can learn or be taught. The learning is done in the mind, where reasoning is located. I think of the conscience as more of a basic, residual, warning system for the natural man. I don’t think God would have been so thoughtless as to strip man of all sense of right and wrong. Well, that’s it in a nutshell. As I’ve said before, I’m not a researcher and haven’t listed any references. These are just my thoughts and, as such, could be shot full of holes. I have presented them in the hope of furthering this thread and continuing this most incredible discussion.