Listener

Thanks waysider, I would have to think the attraction was varied for each individual. I was attracted by the idea of understanding what God's power was, and how to utilize it...like miracles and such. That fascinated me. Of course, I now see that I went to the wrong place to learn about that. TWI wasn't about God's power. I learned a lot thru those years there. Learning such as.....when you touch the hot stove you learn it hurts like he!! and not to ever do that again. ^_^ I'll never forget those lessons! Some were affected more than others...lots of factors involved, I guess. I thank God for those who got away with barely a scratch. As to the others that suffered more, my heart goes out to them. I pray that they will somehow become whole again and overcome their pain. Nice to see you, too, my friend.

There was an old girl named Rosie Who thought her life smelled like a posie. She became prez And they do what she says And she acts like old Rosie is cozy

Thanks, Act2. (I like your handle, very appropriate) Yeah, my wife doesn't realize much about the TWI stuff either. I've tried to spare her the gorey details. She does know enough to realize that I got my heart ripped out and handed back to me in the name of love on a few occasions. <_< She's more of a saint than she knows. And the biggness of her heart is awesome. (can you tell i'm sweet on her? ) Thanks for the welcome. This is a nice place to hang out. Here, have a cup on me. :D

Permission granted, by all means!!! :biglaugh:

Uh, oh! Forgot about payday! Thanks, coolchef. Rascal, I'll have to owe you that two cents.

Very true, rascal. Had any of us seen what was hidden behind the godly language, we would have run away screaming. It was a finely tuned system...I'll give them that. The fear had to be introduced gradually to reap the results they needed. And numbing the conscience was a key factor in making the troups obey...teach them not to listen to the still small voice inside...and if they won't learn, force it on them. If they still won't learn, dump them in the garbage heap.

Gee, that was one mouthful of a question, rascal!! So, here's my 2 cents...... It's human nature to want to think that our decisions are right. And, I think for some, that may mean it's very difficult to admit making a mistake. Do we need twi to be right and spiritually healthy in order to feel good or confident in ourselves? I think most would say they don't. But at the same time, some have to think that at least some of it was good. I disagree there. Of course the scriptures were wonderful and since most, when they first came to TWI, had not read the whole bible, they were new and enlightening. Where I had a problem was with how TWI's leadership twisted those wonderful scriptures to serve their own purposes. The "law of believing" is a good example. The scriptures used were great scriptures and were, indeed, The Word of God. But, the meaning, and context, that vp assigned to them was completely wrong. For me, that kind of "wrong dividing" makes everything he/they taught suspicious, and tends to "spoil the whole pot". I don't have enough years left to disect all those doctrines and correct them (even if I was capable of it). I believe that's a fools errand...to try to fix TWI. I chose to scrap as much as I possibly could (and that's still an ongoing project) and start over, letting Jesus and my Father teach this fool that which even a fool need not err in. I came to truly believe, and trust, that my Father and Jesus would show me and teach me the lessons I needed to know. And I think that's true of each and every person that wants to know God. TWI's greatest evil was stearing God kids away from Jesus Christ and surplanting him with the MOG concept. I think that was Satan's greatest trick...and vp fell for it hook, line, and sinker! So, I do think it is wise to remember the evil wrought by TWI because it serves as a warning sign to never again let someone else pre-digest the Word and shove it down my throat, and to never allow anyone to dictate how I am to walk with Jesus Christ and my Father. That's personal! That's MY business! That's MY responsibility! Remind me of the scriptures...great! Remind me of God's love...wonderful! Have fellowships around the Word...fine. But DON'T even try to tell me that you know better what God wants me to do with my life. Well, that's my 2cents on the subject, anyway. Who's next? :)

:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Please do. A good rhyme is refreshing to the soul.

IMHO....I don't think vp could have functioned, as he did, without the wc...and still have gone the direction that we have observed. vp had to have a group of trusted followers to carry out his every wish. Ordinary believers were too unreliable. They might rebel against a given order and stop vp in his tracks...so, he HAD to have a wc that was totally and unconditionally, committed to HIM. With the right training, he believed he could ask anything of them, within "reason", and they would carry it out for him...dog soldiers, so to speak. He used the wc like a hunter uses his dog, to go out and "get" those unbelievers into the class. I don't think vp was really very concerned about the ordinary believers. They were just more "recruits waiting to happen"...future corps, so to speak. With more and more corps in the field, generating and running twigs and classes, more and more money would flow into HQ. The more money that flowed in, the bigger HQ grew. The bigger HQ grew, the more prestigious TWI became. The more prestigious TWI became, the more credibility it had in the minds of the potential new believers. And the cycle begins again. vp was addicted, imho, with becoming the biggest and baddest boy on the block...while carring his version of the Word of God over the World. There absolutely were many, many great corps people that deeply cared for God's people and for working for Him in any capacity He wanted them in. But, how far can anyone go in that direction, while being fed misleading doctrine, spiritual untruths, and coersive guidance. TWI's foundation gradually became corrupted to such a degree that spiritual truth was ignored, honesty was discounted and moral integrity was undermined. The corruption stained everyone to some degree or another. So, no, I don't think TWI could have happened as it did without the wc. I thank God so many got out. Sorry for the rant. But this abuse of God's kids makes my blood boil! (i gotta cool off...be back later)

Well, I've heard others' comments about how some of TWI's early teachings were good, and some bad. Has anybody ever figured out whether the "good" stuff was what he plagerized, and if the bad stuff was what he came up with? Might be fascinating. My take is that he was a lousy researcher. So, when he latched onto Wal**r Cu**i*s. he could have someone else do the grunt work that was beneath his status. I do know that a lot of "his" teachings came from corps and research staff. He just approved or disapproved the various papers put before him, and the ones that had value he appropriated to himself...very rarely referencing the original author. I know alcohol played a big roll in his changing behaviour. Alcoholic or not, I don't know. <_< I'm not a researcher. All I know for sure is that he lost sight of Jesus Christ being the head of the body/church, and put himself in that place. I've learned from others how much the scriptures were distorted and even mangled. So, yeah, he deeply hurt us all by teaching us false/misleading doctrine. His other atrocities were the natural outcome of a life speeding down the track of self-worship and scriptural denial. Heck, he treated his motorcoach and Harley better than he treated God's children. After leaving TWI, it took me 12 years of self-condemnation and soul-searching before I could straighten out my "twisted up brain" enough to not blame God, the Father, for my problems. I finally figured out who Jesus Christ was, to me, and what "personal saviour" meant. That's when freedom and forgiveness became real. So, that's why I joined GS...to vent some things, and lend support if someone wants it...otherwise, I'll just listen and learn.

Rascal, In the early 70s there were a few times I got to sit under the tree in the courtyard with him...just the two of us. He could be a regular guy and talk like a good old boy...laugh and joke around...and just have a pleasant talk. If he trusted you, he would let down his guard and be real. I could speak my mind and have a conversation with him. But if someone else, like WC, came around, he changed instantly into the MOG and put on the "spiritual boss" mantle. One these times under the tree with him a WC person walked over to us. vp got up and walked up to the person and reamed him mercilessly for misaligning some chairs, driving him to tears, then watched them walk away crushed and broken, then came back and sat down and chuckled at how he had to "teach" these kids how to be spiritually strong. An ACT!! It was an ACT! He could turn it on and off at will. The slightest thing could set him off. In later years, I felt like I was always walking on glass around him, wondering what I had to do to avoid p*****g him off. He was extremely volatile. Very quick to anger. And I can't remember him ever, in his reproofs, pointing anyone toward Jesus's walk as THE example to follow. It was always vps will that mattered and had to be obeyed. And woe be to you if you were put in charge of something and didn't perform it as he intended it to be done!! 'Cause that meant you were "out of fellowship" and weren't listening to God. Because God was telling you what was wrong and you weren't listening!! What an ego this man had!! I thank God that I wasn't driven to a heart attack! That man could cause more stress than Custer had at his last stand!! And then chuckle about it!!

Dot, yes it does seem like we've had similar experiences. And I'm sure there were many more like us. I pray they have found relief, in some way, that lets them enjoy life once again. Freedom from that oppressive fear, no matter how you slice the cake, is wonderful!!

Ex, I love your sharp wit! :eusa_clap:

My view of RR is that she is a temporary stand-in. I'm sure there is another, more charismatic, being groomed to take the reigns. TWI isn't going to just fade away. It's been too instrumental in separating Jesus Christ from his brothers and sisters.

Yeah, it's the ones that want to be "leaders" that scare me the most.

Thanks, Bagpipes. Figerin' out some of these acronyms can be a trip. I was comin' up with some pretty oddball definitions. I, too, have had problems with TWI related depression and severe anxiety attacks. I got help and have beat it. But my eyes tear up to read the pain others are enduring or have endured. I pray for you guys and love you very much.

Agreed...selling God's Word through one's own teachings is evil at best. Sell bookcovers, pencils, bumperstickers...fine... but NOT His Word. That's to be given freely, just as we've received it freely...(or did we?) Still, it's wrong and the practice should be stopped. Just because some people in "these times" seem to condone selling it, and many seem to approve of it, that has never cut any ice with God. It is His Word...doesn't that fact give Him the right to govern how it's distrubuted? After all, it is His living will!!

Yep, rascal. In all the years I knew vp, I never once heard a sincere apology come from his lips. But I did hear a lot of reasonings about why I/we believers, were missing the mark. He had a real problem with humility and could not humble himself if his life depended on it. So instead, he forced others to humble themselves before him. I think from his earliest years he had an insatiable need to be seen as important in the eyes of others, no matter what the cost was. And I think that opened the door for all the other evils to grow inside him unabated. I saw a definite, but gradual, change through the 13 years I knew him.

May I ask, Shellon, what is PTSD?

My view....I have no sympathy at all for any leader proven to have harmed or misled God's children in any way. He will receive no forgiveness from me, or the Father, or Jesus Christ.....UNTIL he admits to his wrongdoing, repents (permanently changes his behaviour) and sincerely ASKS for forgiveness. And this forgiveness needs to be sought from each individual victim, or publicly if there are a great many victims. That's the biblical process, as I understand it. Very few of those who have been responsible for these wrongdoings have even ADMITTED, let alone, repented or asked. So, they can rot in their sin and face the Lord to reap their own reward. Obtaining forgiveness is the responsiblity of the sinner and is available when he/she admits to it, repents, and asks for it. THEN we, in the love of God, in Christ Jesus, are to forgive, and accept him/her back into the fellowship of the saints. Now, it's another matter as to whether that person should be allowed to continue in his/her former position/capacity in the fellowship. I think usually not. If criminal matters are involved, they should face them honestly and accept the consequences. I'm no biblical scholar by any stretch, but that's the way I see it from the scripture I've read and the example Jesus Christ showed us.

Dan, that picture truly verifies vp's story......a finely crafted CARTOON!!!

Love of money may be the root of all evil, but I think fear is the main tool that the evil one uses to steal, kill, and destroy. I was never corps, just a staffer. But don't think for a second that TWI's BS didn't damage everyone it touched. Everyone that bought into the doctrines was damaged to some degree or another. For the last two years before I left, I had developed intense panic/anxiety attacks...and didn't understand why! Every time some one had a meeting of any kind, I could hardly breathe, or function the whole time. If I was called on to manefest or pray, I'd almost pass out. The internal condemnation was so severe that I thought I was posessed. I was more scared than at any other time in my life. Then a dear, true friend noticed and spoke some, what I believe were, inspired words to me and broke the fear's hold on my mind just long enough for me to comprehend my situation. I gave them my two week notice the next day, and two weeks later my family and I were gone/escaped!! That was all fine and good....but it took 12 years to rebuild my life after that...guess I'm a slow learner!?!?!? :wacko: Yeah, the fear had grown slowly and steadily, like a cancer. The only two paths to stop it, that I could see, was to buy into their lifestyle, or get the he!! out of Dodge!! I cried many nights for my closest friends that I left behind. The way I see it, Jesus, being a personal saviour, takes on a whole new meaning when I see all the amazingly different ways people here are getting deliverance/healing. Whether or not the deliverance seems biblical/religous, quick or slow, don't mean crap...all that matters is that it happens!! I love you guys/gals.

Thanks for that link, Blarney. It is very cool!