def59

I'd be curious to see how the Mormons, JW's do on this list.

I'm back. Did anyone miss me?

The T word. We talk about it, fight about it argue about and name-call about it. Why? What is it about this word that gets us all in an uproar? Why is this attempt to describe the godhead so dangerous?

Hi Allan I am a trinitarian. I used to be unitarian, but am I still monotheistic. To me, Jesus being God made flesh is the ultimate slam dunk by God to make salvation a signed, sealed delivered proposition. Jesus came to us to show us the right way to live and how to do it, which is through him. Apart from him we can do nothing. We are his sheep and hear his voice. So by a perfect man being our sacrifice and suffering the same afflictions and temptations, yet without sin, we can rest in the grace that saved us. He is the high priest who understands us, and the Lord we can bow down to.

Deprogramming is so wrong. My parents were thinking about it once on me.

I was raised in the Church of Christ, then I went secular, then Twi for 10 years then secular and now in churches. I have moved from town to town in my career and found good, conservative (gasp!) Bible-believing churches whereever I went. God has met me at each stop and challenged me to come to terms with what I really believed. At my first church (Free Methodist) I had to come to terms that Jesus was God after all. It wasn't easy. I got water baptized and I became a Sunday School teacher. Got my first taste of the Calvinist-Arminian debate. At my second churc (FMC) I had to confront the idea that sin was a dominant force in my life. Through counseling and prayer I was delivered of many oppressing forces in my life. At my third church, a so-called megachurch (Wesleyan) I learned about the real Jesus and how to apply logic to my beliefs. At my latest church, (United Brethren) I've come to learn that people can be imperfect and still be godly. It's been 15 years and God is still not done with me yet.

But any message we get from God has to be backed up by Scripture. The problem comes when we say the revelation we got from God goes against the book. The book is the best objective moral standard we have, Too many times people get caught up in revelation knowledge and run wild with it. The desire to have that special knowledge that no else has is how twi got started in the first place. In scholarly circles, they would just call gnosticism.

If you sat through advance piffle, he did spend a lot of time in the OT talking about Saul and the prophet Samuel.

OK Jb I am sure you've heard the arguments before, but for the record. What is your take on Jesus spoke of the glory he shared with his Father "before the world began" (John 17:5). He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). On the occasion on which he said this he was nearly stoned for blasphemy. He came from "above", whereas his hearers were from "below". His hearers were "of this world", whereas he was not (John 8:23). He came from heaven (John 3:13; 6:33-35). There are about 20 instances where he claimed to have been sent into this world by his Father (e.g. Luke 10:16; John 4:34; 5:37,38). He claimed a unique relationship with God his Father "Jews of Jesus' day would have considered it improper, indeed scandalous, for a person to use such initmate titles of God" Jesus constantly spoke of God as his Father (about 120 times in John alone). Often he called him "my father" (Matthew 15:13; 18:10; Luke 2:49, etc). In one instance he addressed God by the Aramaic term "abba" (Mark 14:36) which a Jewish child would use of their dad. The Jewish scholar, Professor J. Jeremias, has drawn attention to the rarity of the word "Father" in Jewish literature as applied to God. God is rarely addressed as Father in the Old Testament and there are only a few examples of it in Palestinian Judaism during the early Christian era. The first appearance of "my Father" is in the Middle Ages. The use of the term "abba" as a personal address to God is unknown in Jewish writings. Jews of Jesus' day would have considered it improper, indeed scandalous, for a person to use such intimate titles for God. They realised that, in speaking this way, Jesus was making himself equal with God, and so sought to kill him (John 5:16-18). Jesus took this claim further. He declared himself to be the only one who knew the Father, and therefore the only one who could reveal him to others (Matthew 11:27; John 6:46). He was one with the Father (John 10:30,38). Everything that belonged to the Father belonged to him (John 16:15; 17:10). The Father would send the Holy Spirit to believers in his name (John 14:26). To have our prayers answered we are to ask the Father in his name (John 14:13; 15:16; 16:23,24). He claimed to be the Son of God - not a son of God (Matthew 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,17; 21:33-41; Luke 22:70; John 1:49,50; 5:19-27; 10:36,38, etc.).

JB The trinity survives because the church settled on it centuries ago. Unitarianism creeps up as a heresy from time to time because people want to be god themselves. TWI's doctrines removes Christ from the picture and puts man in His place. Christ was unique, only-begotten, creator, author of our faith. He is the Good Shepherd of Psalm 23. He is the Lamb He is the Lion of Judah He is preparing a place for us and inte4ceding on our behalf and knocking on people's hearts - all at the smae time. Even a resurrected man can't be in more than one place at a time. Maybe you should check the dogmatic tendency of the Unitarian belief and see why you can't change.

Oh that I had a limb leader who saw it that way. I was counseled to have sex with a prostitute to confirm my manhood. But I found only a couple of leaders who ever thought sex outside marriage was a good thing. Most who approved it were low level wannabees or twig leaders.

No matter what it means, it is still only accomplished through Jesus.

Romans 10:9 is not simple nor formulaic. It is the culmination of a process that the chapter lays out. We see a verses down that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. To say Jesus is Lord connotes some sort of faith as does believing that God raised him from the dead. That takes some knowledge of his death and life, so some some instruction is called for. Another verse says whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. So confession is significant. God cannot be put in a box, however, so each salvation story is different.

TL Have you ever considered the possibility that we are all eternal creatures? That would make the verse about being either with God or separated from him eternally make sense. I find your church's belief to be really "unique" and you wonder why people consider it whacked. I stand by my definition of hell in that is the just punishment for someone who has rejected the eternal God. Reject eternity, pay for it eternally. Seems fair to me.

I have been doing some research and I am convinced that some of the most dangerous cults out there today can be found on TBN. Copeland, Hinn, Meyer, Hagee, White, Clement and Osteen. These guys are like vpw on steroids. Their doctrines are dangerous because they take man and place him over God. Forget the trinity, these people make man out to be gods. The WordFaith movement is a danger, because it promotes idolatry draped in a shell of scripture. Just like TWI and others.

I walked away because I just didn't care anymore.

I stayed with TWI for the simple reason that I wanted/needed friends and this was the only place I was making them. when that need was taken care of by outside sources, the rules and regs became useless. Allan, you owe it to yourself to check other places for "truth." Make sure piffle is the right choice for you.

WOW training was a pep rally and torture session all-in-one. I liked it better when it was done after ROA.

I equate TWI with CSI Miami-lots of bright colors, bad acting, inappropriate comments and music and the ability to glamorize the mundane as the most important. Caruso can't hold a candle to LCM for pure emotion-driven monologues. Of course Caruso would be hard-pressed to compete with Bullwinkle.

Name-calling will really validate your point. That's not desperation, its exasperation. The hitting sound you hear is the dull thud of heads slamming into walls as postrs realise you will never give an honest answer to any question.

Did you not meet LCM?

Nato Welcome aboard. GSC is a great place for healing. I will pray for you and your wife as God leads you to wholness. Def. P.S. I am worried more the answers TWI won't question.

Allan, Don't be arrogant about getting SIT "rightly divided" there's enough information out there to suggest that TWI was dead wrong about it. Also, there's nothing wrong with water baptism, it's a great sign of a commitment to a new life. Raf, I am so happy for you. Templelady Even though I disagree with you, I never look at with disdain. With dese eyes maybe, but not dis dain.

Fabulous Just a guess, but it may mean running with all you've got even it mean crashing through a window or feeling broken glass in the parking lot.

By that logic, Michael Moore, John Kerry, and Barabar Streisand are conservatives they way they trash people's lives and condemn conservatives.