def59

Again we see the evidence that vpw either ignored the advice of an expert or embellished a story to pump himself up.

Seeing how vpw works, I can see how Mike operates. Don't listen to anyone else, unless he agrees withy you and don't respond to anyone unless they pay obeisance to you.

Sorry Templelady I find your answers less than satisfying. I've been witnessed to by mormon missionaries, which is a two-year program that takes young men aw away from their families (sort of like WOW on steroids). If they don't have your doctrines right, then you should get on the phone with your Branch leader. (another way term) While I disagree with the LDS take on the Bible, I don't want to appear that I am mocking you. I just want some answers to questions I have had about your group. When I left TWI I got as far away from God. After awhile I went to established churches and found some peace. I couldn't go for another non-orthodox group.

Well, I got the responses I expected to get. Seems we are a bit sensitive still on the subject. In this age of tolerance I guess it was too much to ask if someone had groups in mind they might consider dangerous or strange. We have personality cults all over the place, and some groups that consider themselves to be mainstream. Temple Some points I would like you to explain. Why should we accept the Book of Mormon as equal to the Scriptures. Jesus warned against those adding to the book or taking away. How do we know that Jesus was witnessing to the natives in Central America while he was dead in Palestine? What's the deal with the secret services, special underwear and a doctrine that suggests Jesus and Lucifer were brothers?

Temple Aren't LDS supposed to have some kind of "experience" that validates the church in their minds? If thjat is true, how does that compare to the pffle?

Immature people see hell as a motivator to escape wrath. Rather we should walk toward heaven and Christ, seeking to Glorify God.

Instead of crying about "lost" letters and gospels, why not try dealing with what we have and seeing how that fits. I've heard much talk about lost books, but most of those were eliminated based on the fact their authors could not demonstrate they had been appointed by Christ. None of the writings of the early Church fathers were included in the canon, even though some wanted them. Instead we got a compiltation of the letters that survived and were confirmed by many synods over the decades after Paul and the Apostles died. Templelady, you suggest Paul was somehow disqualified because he was not an Apostle when Jesus issued his commandment, do you not believe that Jesus knew about Paul already?

Sorry wolf I was trying to make the case that sometimes far-fetched ideas seem to plausible to people. Snow on the gas pumps, special glasses to see golden plates. Templelady, eyewitnesses do lie and lie often, why? To obtain something or to impose their will on others. Were you not in TWI? That's where forensics comes in. Physical evidence is so much more convincing than one man's word.

Hey all, Basking in the glory of my old cult days, I recall TWI used to be tops on many lists. Now that TWI has slid off the screen, who are the new top dogs? Some old favorites like the JWs and LDS come to mind, but are there any new young turks looking to make a claim.

Belle. Some people believe and teach that God lives for us. After all, He created us for a reason. That must mean since we are so special that we must be his top priority. Or could it be that He "lives" to put it in our understanding, for something that is the most holy and pure concept that exists. Maybe it is His Glory. Check it out.

Rhea Were you ever WOW in California? I knew someone with that last name once. Maybe your related. Def I guess I've seen enough legalism in TWI and elsewhere that I found PDL to be refreshing. There are other great books out there in Christendom that could help you. If PDL is not your thing, that's no big thing. Have you read Chuck Swindoll or Phillip Yancey or Beth Moore?

Belle When I got out, it took me years before I looked at another program. I am still leery of such things. PDL worked for me because I took a quasi-antagonistic approach. I didn't just accept Warren, I looked up his verses in the versions I had. I like the book and recommend it to those who are searching.

It is as absurd as having to wear special glasses to decipher the writing on some gold tablets found in the hills of New York state.

The accounts of so many people who get into these alternative or deviant lifestyles due to abuse, addiction or lonliness are vast. So to say it is something that is intrinsic is balderdash. To condemn someone to a destructive lifestyle because "they've always felt that way" is so evil, words fail me now. Many people in the homosexual life want out and want so desperately for someone to show them how. The levels of abuse, alcoholism, drug use, obesity and other destructive behaviors is astounding, even in our tolerant culture. People can't get over the guilt and if they do it generally means a searing of their conscience. That being said, my comments earlier about the health risks lesbians face was really made out of compassion. I am a diabetic, so I know the effects of lifestyle choices on my long-term well-being. It's the same with gays and lesbians. Their choices carry ramifications, to say otherwise is ignorant.

Oak Haven't we discussed this issue on previous threads ad nauseum. So far I've seen nothing new in your argument that you haven't already labored on before. Raven, Your philosophy is interesting, do what thou wilt, I guess then the Mafia has it right afterall.

It's called Exodus International and its a ministry that helps people who want to get out of homosexualoty. And there are many who do.

OK, for the record, this is what I am talking about. Health Status and Health Risks of Lesbians Lesbians comprise a subgroup of women whose health status and risks have not been widely researched. One reason for the limited research on lesbian health is the methodological problem of defining what constitutes lesbian sexual orientation, since sexual orientation is commonly described as both behavioral, (i.e., desire or attraction), and cognitive (i.e., identity). Lesbians are found among all subpopulations of women, and are represented in all racial and ethnic groups, all socioeconomic strata, and all ages. There is no single type of family, community, culture, or demographic category characteristic of lesbian women. It is important to note that views about sexual identity and sexual behavior can vary significantly across cultures and among racial and ethnic groups, so it should not be assumed that a lesbian sexual orientation or identity is the same for lesbians of different racial, ethnic,or cultural backgrounds. Fundamentally, lesbians need access to the same high quality health screening and preventive care that is appropriate for all women throughout the life cycle. Lesbians and their providers often remain uninformed about important health issues, including the need for: cervical and breast cancer screening, reducing the risk of sexually transmitted diseases and HIV; caring for mental health issues including depression; diagnosing and treating substance abuse; pregnancy and parenting assistance; and understanding domestic/intimate violence. Differences in health risks for lesbians from women in general could be attributed to a number of factors. A woman’s health behavior, stress, and the nature of her experiences with the health care system can all affect her risk for various health conditions. Health behaviors/characteristics Pregnancy--- Lesbians appear to be less likely to report having biological children than heterosexual women. However, there are still substantial numbers of lesbian women who are parents, particularly through artificial insemination or adoption. There is little research on how many lesbians are mothers or the number of individuals who have lesbian mothers. In the Women’s Health Initiative sample, lesbians are less likely to ever have been pregnant than were heterosexual women. These differences were particularly pronounced for lifetime lesbians of whom 34.1% had previously been pregnant, compared to 61.2% of the mature lesbians and 89.1% of the heterosexual women. Lesbians are less likely to report having used oral contraceptives between the ages of 25 and 35 (only 16.7%), which may put them at greater risk for breast, endometrial and ovarian cancers. Smoking--- Although data on lesbians’ unique health risks is limited, certain behaviors that can increase heath risks may be more prevalent in lesbians than in heterosexual women. Preliminary results from the Women’s Health Initiative suggest that approximately twice as many lesbians are heavy smokers compared to heterosexual women. Almost half of heterosexual women report never smoking, compared to one-third of lesbians (6.8% of lifetime lesbians and 7.4% of mature lesbians versus 3.5% of heterosexual women). Smoking can increase a woman’s risk for lung and cervical cancer, as well as cardiovascular disease. Obesity--- Some studies suggest lesbians are more likely to be overweight than heterosexual women, which can put them at greater risk for cardiovascular disease and some other health conditions. Preliminary information from the Women’s Health Initiative suggests that a greater proportion of lesbians are above the overweight threshold when Body Mass Index (BMI= 27) is calculated (52.3% of lifetime lesbians compared to 45.8% of heterosexual women). Alcohol Use-- Reviews of lesbian health research suggest a smaller percentage of lesbians (compared to heterosexual women) abstain from alcohol. Even when rates of heavy drinking among lesbians and heterosexual women are comparable, rates of reported alcohol problems are higher in lesbians than in heterosexual women. Similarly, a greater percentage of lesbians describe themselves as being in recovery from alcohol abuse. There is some speculation that lesbians generally have fewer social norms and family responsibilities that limit drinking. However, these theories cannot be fully substantiated without further research. Substance Abuse-- From the limited data on lesbians’ use of illicit drugs, it appears that lesbians report greater use of marijuana, inhalants and cocaine than do women in general. There is evidence that female injection drug users in urban areas identify themselves as lesbians at a higher rate than women in general, however, it is possible that injection drug users as a population sub group might be more willing to disclose their sexual behavior or identity. The IOM Report lists drug abuse among lesbians as an area in need of further research. Stress Physiological responses to stress can have many negative health consequences, especially over a long period of time. Lesbians may have additional stresses that compound the everyday stress that everyone experiences. Identity Issues-- Stress may result from the burden of hiding one’s lesbian identity from family or coworkers. Legal Issues-- Stress can come from a feeling of legal isolation and lack of cultural acceptance of living situations. Lesbians do not have many of the same legal rights as married couples, and lesbians who are parents may face difficulties with parental rights when partners separate. Discrimination--- Stress effects may be greatest in lesbians who experience multiple forms of discrimination, such as those who are also members of ethnic or racial minority groups. The combination of homophobia, racism, and sex-based discrimination puts the health of these women in "triple jeopardy". Interactions with the health care system Misconceptions about health risks--- Assumptions made by health care providers while taking sexual or social history of lesbian patients can compromise the quality of health care that a lesbian receives, as can overt discrimination or homophobia. Further, past negative health care experiences can discourage a lesbian from seeking care in the future, including preventive and screening measures, which further jeopardizes her health. Cervical Cancer---Research has shown that lesbians are less likely to receive pap smears than are heterosexual women. Pap smears are one of the most effective methods of cancer prevention for women, yet both lesbian women and their health care providers often overlook the need for cervical cancer screening. Many health care providers and patients share the false assumption that because lesbians are not currently sexually active with men, they are not at risk for developing dysplasia (abnormal cells in the cervix). As a result of this misinformation, lesbians may avoid medical services and health care providers may give incorrect advice and underutilize appropriate health screenings for these patients. It is also possible that lesbians seek obstetrician-gynecologists less frequently than do heterosexual women, and may have less exposure to screening services traditionally offered by these specialists. However, lesbians, like all women, need regular pap smears. Sexually Transmitted Diseases---Lesbians are at risk for many sexually transmitted diseases. Genital warts, usually associated with the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV), can be transmitted sexually from woman to woman, as can the Herpes virus. Hepatitis B can also be transmitted between women. Any sexually active person should be immunized against Hepatitis B. Similarly, any sexually active person should be considered at some risk for all sexually transmitted diseases, since it is impossible for a health care professional to accurately determine the sexual history of same sex partners. HIV/AIDS --HIV does occur in lesbians, usually due to two factors 1) sharing of needles and 2) when lesbians have sex with men who have been exposed to HIV. However, because there is also a theoretical risk of HIV transmission between lesbians, safe sex guidelines are recommended. Small studies are currently underway to study the risk of HIV infection in lesbians. Barriers to Quality Health Care Elements of the health care system itself, such as managed care, legal rights, and the attitudes and training of health care providers, contribute to negative experiences that can discourage lesbians from seeking appropriate and necessary health screening and treatment. Insurance---There is also a general lack of availability of family or household health insurance coverage for members of lesbian households. This both restricts lesbians’ access to health insurance through their partners (access they would have through a heterosexual marriage), and makes family-focused care difficult. Lesbians without health insurance are significantly more likely to report heart disease, to smoke, to have eating disorders (either overeating or undereating), to be victims of physical and sexual abuse and anti-gay violence, and to be less likely to have a Pap test. (Bradford et al., 1994). Legal Issues-- The lack of legal rights for lesbian partners or lesbians as co-parents, such as hospital visitation, access to information, participation in treatment decisions, and health care proxy appointment, can be a barrier to adequate medical care. Patient-Doctor Communication: Health risks and health-seeking behaviors have been found to be strongly associated with ease of communication with the primary care provider and ease of access to care. However, various studies suggest that few physicians are knowledgeable about or sensitive to lesbian health risks or health care needs (White and Dull, 1997). There is a need for training of health care professionals in addressing the experiences and health needs specific to lesbian clients. Cultural Competency: Health care for lesbians would improve if physicians could more fully understand why lesbians might be reluctant to seek medical care and the impact of homophobia on the provision of services to lesbians. Similarly, there is a need for an increased awareness of the range of health problems experienced by lesbians as well as their health care risks. Doctors should avoid making heterosexual assumptions in the gathering of medical and social health information from patients; and show a willingness to involve partners of lesbian patients in discussions about their health care. Research More research is needed on lesbian health issues for several reasons: To gain knowledge and improve the health status and health care of lesbians; To confirm beliefs and counter myths and misconceptions about the health risks of lesbians; and, To identify health conditions for which lesbians are at risk or tend to be at greater risk than women in general. Activities on Lesbian Health The Department of Health and Human Services have held a series of scientific meetings to evaluate how to most effectively respond to the IOM report. In September 1999, a coalition of offices and institutes at the National Institutes of Health held a research workshop. New Approaches to Research on Sexual Orientation, Mental Health and Substance Abuse was co-sponsored by the National Institute of Mental Health, National Institute on Drug Abuse, Office of Behavioral and Social Sciences Research, and the Office of Research on Women’s Health as well as the American Psychological Association. On March 23-24, 2000, the Department of Health and Human Services convened the Scientific Workshop on Lesbian Health to consider steps that could be undertaken for implementation of the recommendations from the recent IOM report. The workshop convened ten working groups around specific content noted in the report, including Life Span Development; Cancer; Cardiovascular Disease and Obesity; Service Delivery and Access to Services; Mental Health and Substance Abuse; HIV/AIDS and STDs; Research Methodology; Research Career Development; Health Promotion; and Resiliency/Health Effects of Homophobia. The seventeen National Centers of Excellence in Women’s Health, sponsored by the Office on Women’s Health, are committed to serving diverse groups of women, including lesbians. A booklet, "Lesbian Health Activities at the National Centers of Excellence in Women’s Health" can be found on the National Women’s Health Information Center website, www.womenshealth.gov or by calling the toll free phone number, 1-800-994-WOMAN (TDD: 1-888-220-5446). Resources Office on Women’s Health U.S. Department of Health and Human Services 200 Independence Ave, SW Room 712E Washington, DC 20201 (202) 690-7650 Office of Research on Women’s Health National Institutes of Health Building 1, Room 201 Bethesda, MD 20892 IOM Report: Lesbian Health: Current Assessment and Directions for the Future. Andrea L. Solarz, Editor. Institute of Medicine. Funded by the National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Institute of Medicine Website: http://www.iom.edu

Belle, King James was not the author of the Bible that bears his name. He authorized it, not authored it. As for your long lists, what's your point? Who someone has sex with does not make them who they are. Why don't you publish a list of alcoholics, pedophiles or criminals who were famous. The gay rights people want to say that what you do makes up what you are, but that sells EVERYONE short. We are more than hormones. We are substantive people. And rascal, for the last time, my point was anything but ignorant. I have read up and found issues that lesbian women deal with, physical, mental and emotional. It is not prejudice to say that people who live a certain way have issues that are not readily apparent. To say otherwise, imho, is really ignorant.

Infant baptism has its roots in the practice of dedication at the temple. I think it is more for the parents signifying they will bring the child up right. The baby is clueless and cannot make the decision for itself.

There is some notion out there that Christians are supposed to be exempt from pain and suffering. This notion is held most by young people to whom mortality is a sick fantasy. TWI and the Word Faith crowd make a big deal about living a safe soft comfortable life, but the Bible is clear that God will use whatever means necessary to bring his people in line. He will not be mocked by his kids.

What in my post was so darned-condemning anyway? I spoke the truth. Go to a lesbian site (not porn) and you will find a slew of health problems related to lesbianism. Our life choices do have ramifications. From diabetes to emphesyma to cancer, we all face challenges. I am in the media and there have been stories about how many in the medical field do not know how to treat or talk to their lesbian patients about some health issues. That's reality, not politics or morals. Gay men have certain health issues that relate to their lifestyles. That's reality. Obese, smokers, junk food junkies and blacks and Jews all have particular health issues. What's your problem?

Most cultic beliefs (JW, Mormonism, TWI) can be easily disproven, but it takes some outside power to get someone inside to admit their error. Or they just float from one cult to the next, thinking they have gotten it right now.

I believe in a literal hell. It is designed for Satan and his angels who rebelled against God. Humans who go there will not be able to handle it. How does one get there? By rejecting the infinite glory of the Father. That rejection condemns a man to eternal separation, utter blackness, a lake of fire. The finite number of sins we commit here only make our hell worse or better than someone else. All will be forgiven if one accepts Jesus as their Messiah, their Savior and his plan for Atonement. God wants all men to be saved, and everyone who calls upon his name will be saved. So why are you still waiting?

China is a godless society and they are faced with forced sterilization, forced-labor camps and a lousy environment. The USSR had a high rate of promiscuity — and abortions. Cuba imprisons dissidents. America is suffering from a loss of its moral footings because its believers have rejected their first love. We've always had problems and we always will. No one is perfect.

Lesbians face many health hazards due to their lifestyle choices. STDs come to mind. Check out some women's health web sites and see for yourself.