anotherDan

George, would I be wrong assuming you were a "Way believer" at one time? With over 5000 posts, I would think so, but I do know there are post-ers here who were not. And now you're not sure if there even is a God, much less Jesus Christ. I can't blame you; I'm tempted to doubt that myself at times. Thank you for sharing your perspective. But it's painfull to someone like me. Your attempt at humor worked with me. But sorry, no loan.

Roy, I just reread your answers, and frankly do not know how to respond to them. I have this (right brain? I don't know those terms well enought) clear logic type of brain that has gotten me into trouble, and you have a lot more fluidity in your thinking and syntax. To me, you also seem a little squirrely with the true-and-also-false answers, but honestly, I'm learning that sometimes I just don't get things, even if they are right! A prime example is my marriage of almost 30 years. It took me a LONG time to recognise that Liz's "feelings" were a lot more right-on than some of my "thoughts." I do appreciate the good wishes and the holy kiss. Jean, your straightforward answers are easy to grasp for me. Thanks for chiming in. Here's one example: "Mormonism, Catholicism, and JW’s are perversions of Christianity. T/F/U I am not sure what you mean by perversion. I don't think they believe the Bible accurately, but then I don't think I do 100% of the time either. Given the three choices, I would have to say True." My own view is that the basic answer to the question is True. I would certainly say that about TWI as well, during any part of its history, though the later years were progressively more perverted, IMO. And that begs the question, what should we do today? Give up? Try to reform our churches? Are there denominations or non-denom churches or "splinter groups" that we should support, as imperfect as they may be? I say Yes to reform and cooperation and support, as much as is in us. For Liz and myself, we have chosen to hang with some folks that are reforming themselves the best they can. We also have enjoyed the company and fellowship of many different stripes of believers in traditional churches, and even Quaker meetinghouses. IMO, Mormonism, Catholicism, and JWs (I could list more.... SDAs, for example) are just not going to be groups that Liz and I could help much, or be helped by. There is much more fertile ground elsewhere, although Catholics often could care less what their official denomination proclaims as doctrine. I should say here that many Catholic believers and scholars have had a very profound influence on my thinking in my later years. Pascal, for example. Also, before the Reformation, there were virtually no others that could be called believers other than RCs and the Eastern Church. But their history is riddled with plenty of "bathwater" that needs to be thrown out. The Vatican Council in the 1960s was really an amazing event, and IMO a huge step forward for the Catholic Church. Too bad it didn't "take" fully. Maybe there's still time.

InvisibleDan, I enjoyed your answers as well, especially the narrative ones. Thank you! EyesOpen, I'm glad your eyes are open. Though we disagree about a couple of the items, I've come to enjoy reading all of your posts that I come across. You're honest and sometimes very clever (Did David write Psalm 23? You don't know, but you like it regardless!). Your take on the sabbath was particularly appreciated.

Abigail, I just reread your answers and they were all thoughtful and interesting. I'm glad to be getting to know you more. You asked two questions about what I meant by "sin conscious" and "apostles and prophets." Well, the idea of "sin consciousness" being bad for the Christian was a common theme in TWM... the verse comes to mind in Hebrews about having our consciences purged from sin, and of course, the oft-preached Romans 8:1. My question was intended to provide opportunity for others to either affirm that belief or state how they have changed their thinking. My thinking has definitely changed, though I used to believe the party line. Now, I think it's quite beneficial for the believer to be "sin conscious." My goodness... if I sin, (and I will!) I want to be conscious of it! The problems that led to the demise of TWI are precisely that some leaders were sin "UNconscious"! And that, I contend, is a bad place to be..... "with a hot iron" As far as apostles and prophets go, I wouldn't presume to define the terms. That is, I meant for people to be able to express whether they believed either prophets or apostles (mentioned in the New Testament, and defined by the way they are used there) are among us today. In other words, Paul called himself an apostle of Jesus Christ. Are there apostles today? That's what I meant. As for me, I cannot be sure, but I think it is possible. Roy's answer was interesting, wasn't it? "what if I said I was one?" To that, Roy, in another life, I would ask you to provide the proof of your apostleship, as Paul did, but I'm not as argumentative as I once was. Your other answers were interesting, too... just can't comment on them now, but I'll get to it! Lots of "true, but false" answers! Abi-dear, your answer to the is-Jesus-lord question is consistent with all the other posts I've read from you. Would you then say that God is your Lord? The God of Abraham, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Your answer regarding the sabbath was a blessing, too. I agree that strict conformity in the Jewish manner is not wise. It flies in the face of Jesus' teaching and example, for one. This was one area that again and again, he demonstrated or taught that there is something amiss with that kind of practice, much as the sacrifices of Israel become a stink in God's nostrils. Liz and I "practiced" for some months last year, setting Friday sunset to Saturday sunset as a time of rest... trying to stay just to that basic. I even set up the fireplace with wood ahead of time (it was winter) but I didn't have any qualms about kindling it on Saturday morning. I did a lot of reading on the subject (Jewish and otherwise) and we came to enjoy our prayers and shabbat meals on Friday evening.... sometimes our family or friends would join us. We did not tell too many people we were doing this! I'd like to still be doing it, but I have a lot of responsibilities, and on top of that, I have a little boat I'm fixing up (actually, I'm NOT fixing it up... it just sits there waiting for me to get back to it!). But that condemns me right there. This is not one of the Ten Suggestions! I found myself using a Jesus-provided excuse for working on the sabbath... if there were any "little lambs" who had fallen into a ditch, I'd do what I could for them... (i.e. single mothers who needed their gardens tilled!)

Larry, you've GOT to get someone to animate the fingers on your avatar! (and maybe the eyebrows)

Shifra wrote: When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean? He was telling Nicodemus to start from scratch. When a baby takes his first breath, there’s a flap that closes within the circulatory system, and causes the blood to flow in the opposite direction that it was flowing prior to birth. Talk about a “change of heart”!!! Erasing all the junk and beginning again in purity and without prejudices or bias - learning everything as though we knew nothing: this is being Born Again. I just spent about 9 hours reading another thread, and I've neglected one that I've started! Thank you, all for your responses, and I hope you'll forgive me for the short visit. I'd like to respond to more of your answers, but just don't have it in me now, and my lawn is WAY overdue for a mowing! I really loved your answer, Shifra, to the Nicodemas question. Nic was a Pharisee, and if he was going to get his eyes opened, here was his opportunity. But it wasn't going to happen if he wasn't willing to start over. And what about his answer? "Can a man enter in to his mother's womb and be born again?" Maybe he wasn't as dumb as I used to think. Maybe he was responding rabbi-to-rabbi, and knew exactly what Jesus was requiring of him, and telling him in the same language that he could not!

I CANNOT believe I've read this whole thread! I admit to skim-reading certain parts, particularly once I got to know the players. :) Still took me eight hours, with only a short break to make and (sort of) enjoy a tuna sandwich and a glass of milk. Lots of points were scored by both teams, and there were quite a few flags were thrown, and penalties. Wish this hadn't descended into the usual slugfest, but I do understand that there are a variety of needs to address. I'm sympathetic to the presumption of innocence (ala disciderator) and I also tend to use a little salt when confronted with even "eyewitness" testimony. I spent many years in TWI and had my ups and downs, and am surely changed for the experience. Still sorting out what was the baby and what the bathwater. In recent years, my wife and I have been connected with a small "splinter" that took some bold directions, some of which I don't necessarily agree with, but I've hung around because generally people are commited to forbearance and in actually helping one another. The course changed at one point from a pronounced casting-out-of-spirits (ala Derek Prince) to "inner healing," which has a lot to do with revisiting past trauma, and "allowing" God into the process, in order to gain His light on some of the events that were pivotal in our lives. Also, some years ago, God granted Liz and I a year or two where we visited a number of different churches, from mega-churches with the full orchestras, to little Pentacostal Holiness Deliverance Tabernacles. We've also visited a number of Quaker meetings (ask me sometime!) and of course, the baby was there, and plenty of bathwater, if you know what I mean. We have a wonderful couple not far from us who have been hosting a fellowship to explore the Gospels. Some years ago, Anth0ny Buzzard visited here, and got a number of us thinking of the kingdom of God, and in particular, the teachings and ministry of Jesus. This was one of the things that got us revisiting the Gospels. I've since become convinced that dispensationalism is bad theology. It separates us from the teachings of Jesus, allowing us to ignore them as "addressed" to others. As Anthony might say (or Jesus himself), "you call him lord. Wouldn't it make sense to listen to what he says?" (I anticipate the retorts... I was a retorter, once, myself... try to stay out of that now.) Anyway, the group just started with Matthew 1:1, and after several years, they're just beginning the Gospel of John. They just go through as many of the verses that week as they like, and pick up the next week with the next verse. "Our" ranks are being "thinned" (thickened) with newcomers who never heard of TWI. As for Liz and myself, the only fellowship we host is once a month, on the first Friday, when we host communion at our home. Usually 4 or 5 people come, and sometimes we have a meal together. (You are welcome.... email me for directions!) As I revisit here, and am reminded of the hurt people have to deal with, it saddens me greatly. It also saddens me to see those whose faith has been destoyed. I don't come here with the foolish notion that we can just talk about the good ol' days, how ever each of us might define them. This is a site that grew out of a fallen ministry, and one that, IMO, fell for good reason. God does not take it lightly when men get "high and mighty." TWI has become a nothing, and less than nothing. Mrs. Wierwille.... don't even get me started. Dr. Wierwille died before his accusers could get their bearings, apparently, but ultimately, God judges us all. Like "deciderator" I have a good deal of respect for our justice system, but obviously, it fails, and we have OJ still golfing. But he's in a prison of a different sort, as is LCM, who was not so "fortunate" as to have died before his accusers got their bearings! Only once, after many many years in the ministry, was I aware of any sexual shenannigans by leadership. While I was in residence, a fellowcorpsmember told me of an advance that was made on her at the campus by a visiting "dignitary." Shortly after that, LCM started resisting CG's vision of how things should go, and our Corps Coordinators (the Mausolfs) left, and then nearly EVERYBODY we counted honest started leaving, and we finally left also. (Not that I condone CG's thing... nothing could be further from the truth.) Regardless of fallible men and ministries, we're all still on a journey, and it's a journey of salvation. Many of the people here are "working out" that salvation, as am I. Some appear to have given up. But even those who have given up are still in God's hands, and what Jesus did for them (as well as for us, who call him "Lord") still abides. The class was full of stuff I'd never considered before. Overall, the idea of approaching it honestly, and letting it "speak for itself" is one of the abiding principles I live by... of not coming to it with the "answers." But much of the class was just hogwash. Hogwash released by a sincere man, but you know, sincerety is just no guarantee for truth! Some of the things others have said they loved from the class seem like pure hogwash to me now. I agree with the poster that (so long ago) opined that TWI was a good thing gone bad. Maybe absolute power does corrupt absolutely. I'm convinced that success in ministry is as much a test of one's character as failure. (True in general life, as well.) I admire Rev. Billy Graham's growth as he matured. He actually got better with age, despite his success! His sermon/sharing after 9/11 in the National Cathedral was magnificent. Anyway, folks, thanks for the perspective. I do pray, and I believe that you will find the healing you seek, and I'm thankful for this site, this opportunity to go back-and-forth on some of these issues. It certainly can help.

Hi all, and thank you for participating in the discussion. Like Shifra, unfortunately, I am pressed for time and will be leaving shortly for beautiful NJ for a few days and may not get back to my computer until I get back. As I mentioned in the Paul-ist thread, I've become less inclined to feel that it is my job to tell others what to believe. God knows how foolish I can be, and how wrong when I seem so certain. That being said, I yearn to be whole in every way, and having a soundness of mind is part of that. I had a lively discussion with Anthony Buzz@rd once about this, over lunch, and he countered, "but what about the scriptures that say to admonish... what about heresy...?" (Not an actual quote.. I didn't record him!) And certainly, there is a need for that, at times. But certainly, at least at this time in my life, I do not feel called to do that. I truly believe that others may do it in perfect comformity with the will of God. Of course, I had the option to put my answers right up top, and frankly, I thought I might get some flack for not doing so, but I didn't... just a polite "what are your thoughts...." (thank you!) It's already evident that there are diverse opinions, and honestly, I do not want to discourage that. I just want to generate some healthy discussion about a few salient issues. There is a phrase in Ephesians, that we might "comprehend, with all the saints..." and at some point I began to believe that among us, the truth will indeed prevail, and understanding come. Surely, the survey is not comprehensive, and it includes some "pet" personal issues. James and Paul, for example, I believe are in complete harmony, as far as their letters go. At the council in Acts 15, there was some genuine debate, but the NT writings agree, in my opinion. They at least can be seen as harmonious. The Sabbath is also a pet issue. I began to look further at it a couple of years ago, and found it strange that every OTHER of the Ten seems to be almost universally acknowledged by Christians as the will of God, and yet that one (which is actually a delightful "commandment" -- to REST!) seems to be marginalized. Of course, the discussion will have to be made as to whether we as Christians (or otherwise?) are "commanded" to rest. Some take the view that like the food laws, God knew what was best for man, and therefore we should both heed the dietary commandments as well as observe shabbat. I'm here to learn and appreciate, and look forward to others chiming in. BTW, I think homosexuality is a sin, that God loves homosexuals, and that Moses did not write Genesis! (it records his death!)

T-bone: Insightful. And with practical, present-day meaning. Do I doubt and disobey God? Is my relationship with my Creator hampered by my self-will? Do I show due regard for the consequences of my actions?

Here's a survey you can copy and paste into your reply with your own answers. Elaborate on your answers if you like. You can also come back and write a full explanation of your position for any particular item. (Heck, you can do whatever you like!) T = true F = false U = unsure Adam and Eve are historical figures, who lived 5000 - 7000 years ago. T/F/U Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. T/F/U The risen Jesus Christ is my Lord. T/F/U The Book of Job is allegorical. That is, it attempts to explain human suffering using fictional characters. T/F/U The disciple John, one of "the twelve", wrote 5 Books: John, 1John, 2John, 3John, and Revelation. T/F/U Paul wrote Hebrews. T/F/U Moses wrote Genesis. T/F/U David wrote the 23rd Psalm. T/F/U Paul's doctrine of "by faith alone" contradicts James' doctrine, as recorded in the Book of James. T/F/U Four were crucified with Jesus. T/F/U I speak in tongues in my private prayer life. T/F/U God loves homosexuals. T/F/U Homosexuality is not a sin. T/F/U God does not hate. T/F/U 1 Cor. 12 says that all nine "manifestations" of the spirit are the privilege of everyone who has been "born again" by confessing Jesus as their lord, and believing God raised him from the dead. (When combined with Romans 10:9 and other scriptures.) T/F/U The prayer of a believer can move God to do something He would not otherwise have done. T/F/U Mormonism, Catholicism, and JW’s are perversions of Christianity. T/F/U Some of Jesus’ teaching is impossible to carry out. T/F/U "Sin consciousness" is not in the believer’s self-interest. T/F/U The canon is closed. Another authentic letter of Paul will never surface. T/F/U There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. T/F/U Requiring narrative answers (short or long): When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean? What are your thoughts on the Fourth commandment (not to work on the sabbath)?

Thanks, Abigail. I've heard of the Jewish practice of joining with God in the rebuilding of paradise. Can't think of the term for it now. I have a wonderful friend who is a Christian from a strong Jewish background. Her husband is still a Jew, and her son, but her daughter is Christian. I'd ask her, but she's in Cape Cod for two weeks. (And she will be enjoying the lobster! ) The term is not tzedakah, which is giving to the poor... Considering 1John more deeply in recent years, it's become "easier" to love my neighbor. I sometimes simply stop myself and ask myself the question, "Am I giving or imparting life, or taking from the person?" Forbearance is a form of love. As parents, we do it all the time with our children. If I reveal someone's secrets or past sins to someone else, am I planting something in my listener's mind that they will have to deal with every time they see that person? A truly Christian community would be a broad family of life-givers, where the old folks impart life to the young ones, and vice versa. Then we really are God's children, according to the writer of 1John. If we hate one another, we are joined with the Devil and his work; if we love, we are God's children. And that's all the proof we really need, according to 1John. And this says much the same thing: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

Thanks for the welcome and the comments. Shifra, if NT Wright doesn't "speak" to you, I can totally understand. Some of his writings are more accessible than others, and he's quite over my head much of the time! Yet he did help me to appreciate that Paul's writings may have been profoundly misunderstood, particularly from the Reformation onward. He's also great at dispelling the postmodern thinking that fuzzes everything up. (Truth is relative.) I couldn't find the link you quoted from (the one Invisi-dan suggested); can you repost the link? The quote doesn't make sense to me, because I'm pretty sure that Josephus never mentioned Paul at all in his writings. The quote seems to imply he did. Part of your theory is that Paul's writings were at cross-purposes with the teachings of Jesus. (Am I correct?) Perhaps part of the conversation could focus on that. My understanding of your position is that the Gospels are more to be trusted than what is purported to be the writings of Paul. I may be over-stating your case, I'm not sure. You wrote emphatically that you're Christian. In this part of your journey, do you feel the Gospels can be trusted?

Through a delightful coincidence, I got back in touch with Lonnell a few years back. Still a professor, and part of an apostolic/prophetic church. Wonderful soul! It's a good news day! No blues, no way to lose! Anyone who wants to can send me their contact info, and I will pass it on to Lonnell

I'm still in touch with Steve and Teresa. Abigail just got married. If you like, email me your contact info and I'll pass it on to them.

I think John's statement "God is love" could have the emphasis placed on any of the three words, but my own feeling is that it should be on "God." If that is true, when we love, we are joined with God. John offers an explicit definition of love in 1John: Jesus gave his life for us. "herein is love..." This is contrasted to Cain, who took his brother's life. His conclusion is that we also ought to lay down our lives for the brothers and sisters. There are many ways to give of your life, of your possessions, your time. Whenever you authentically do that, it seems to me, you are joined with God, a co-conspirator, as it were. Whoever loves is born of God and knows God. As someone wrote above... the subject is inexaustible. All the law is summed up in this thread's title, and as Abi pointed out, God's sensitivities extend even to those of the bovine persuasion (and beyond). All is refected in the law, and I think it's useful to take a look at it, as Abigail is doing.

My first post. Just sought out an active, current, interesting thread... visited here many years ago. I like to read every post before responding, but I just can't this morning! No doubt some fine points were made after page 6. First of all... interesting folks and dynamic. Shifra, your theory demonstrates a willingness to be free, which is a very good thing, and I applaud you for it. Your comments about the families you assisted in childbirth likewise demonstrate something similar to what God has shown me, as well: there is a lot more diversity to the family of God than the exclusivists declare so boldly. God granted me some amazing interactions with some young Muslim men a few years ago. I'm more sympathetic to Paul's writings than you, but I've had some help: the writings of N.T. Wright. He's Bishop of Durham (Anglican) and has quite a body of work, scholarly and pedestrian. Google him for some interesting discussions about the "new understanding" of Paul, if you like. Since leaving the Way behind, I've been a voracious reader... almost like I wasn't allowed before! (Only partially true. We build prisons for ourselves, as well.) Favorite authors include F.F. Bruce and Bruce Metzger. William Barclay is also wonderful... universalist though he is... he "almost persuadeth me..." On the more critical side, you might try Heinz W. Cassirer, Grace & Law (subtitle St. Paul, Kant, and the Hebrew Prophets). Interesting guy. A "Jewish classist and philosopher who had not read a word of the Bible before age forty nine." Quote is from the jacket of his translation of the New Testament. Long story short, reading Paul's letters convinced this non-practicing Jew to convert. He had done a lot of translation before this from classical Greek (Aristotle, etc.) Spent his last 21 years studying the Bible. Translation (God's New Covenant) was published posthumously. Grace & Law, while convinced by Paul, offers a searing analysis of Paul's psyche. Not that I agree with this "renowned authority on Aristotle and Kant." Can't think of the author, but another interesting Paul book is Paul's Idea of Community. A great book, though more traditional than N.T. Wright, is F.F. Bruce's Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free. My own mind is that Paul, like myself, experienced something of the living Christ, the resurrected Jesus, the living Lord. It was this experience (which, as we all know, is "no guarantee for truth"!! ha!) recounted in Acts and Paul's epistles that shaped the rest of his life, and (UNlike me!) Christianity as we know it. While I have some (OK, many) lingering questions, I can reconcile Paul with the Gospels, James, and the truth, as I currently understand it. The salient part of the "new understanding" of Paul relates to "God's righteousness" and the "righteousness" of Jewish practitioners in Paul's day, and it is something I think you already firmly believe: God disapproves of stuck-up exclusivist "believers." The righteousness of God (literally, His faithfulness and love) is contrasted with "their own righteousness," which has to do with their separateness, their reliance on birthright, etc. Both Jesus and Paul hammered them. I'm sure a great number of verses come readily to mind. Forgive me, but one more point, sort of on topic. Dispensationalism has, in my mind, been a very destructive force dividing the Church into Paulists and Jesus-ists. My pendulum did a lot of swinging when for me, THAT shoe fell! I became extremely repentant of how I'd let MY theology separate me from the commands and teachings of Jesus. This opened up a huge opportunity for me to re-study the Gospels, something I am still doing. Enjoy the process, my dear. God not only has spoken, but is speaking! Dan <-- exWay, exWOW (4x), exFamCorps14. Feel free to email me, anyone.