anotherDan

Oh well. That was from "Lee Shore," David Crosby, CSN, first album "Like an eagle protects its nest, for you I'll do my best Stand by you like a tree, and dare anybody to try an' move me..."

I see better now. The mind and heart. I think it says in Ephesians "be renewed in the spirit of your mind", whereas in Romans it's to "be...transformed by the renewing..." Beautiful verses, but we must unmangle them! And darn it, I intend to do so! WRDs, you're a great communicator! Thanks for your thoughts. Something to work on. "...trying to make "believing" come from my mind by thinking it, and when my mind wouldn't cooperate, fearing the consequences of fear." We'll get it!

That was my sense, too, Rocky. The ads seem to get more narrowed in once a thread gets long... more words to process... notice how generic the ads are on this short thread. It gets pretty funny, though, on a long thread, as they try to electronically "figure out" what might appeal to us. (It's just keywords, I would guess. Advertisers have their ads posted when certain keywords come up._

oh! well BLESS your heart! that is funny! OK... now edit your post out... I want to be the only one to know! :B)

So what does your name mean? I've been trying to guess.

<embed src="http://godtube.com/flvplayer.swf" FlashVars="flvPath=http://godtube.com/flvideo1/7/11096.flv&flvTitle=Brought to you by: GODTUBE.COM" wmode="transparent" quality="high" width="330" height="270" name="flv_demo" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /></embed> hmm that did not work Try this: Psalm 23

maybe it was because a POLOR bear posted there? hehe

Someone else here has mentioned them... it seems to me that the Google ads are context-sensitive to what's going on in the thread, which is very clever. (Google was voted #1 place to work in America by a top business magazine.) So if someone has a signature line about Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, we get ads for Fred Astaire ringtones. What a fascinating modern age we live in!

I've been reading the old threads. Rather than pull one back with a reply, I figure I'd just start another. The old thread is here, and it's quite lively: S.I.T. Someone just sent me this quote by NT Wright: Wright is Bishop of Duram (Anglican Church) and if he wasn't quite so controversial, he might have become Archbishop of Canterbury. He's a prolific writer, and one of the strongest voices for a "new understanding of Paul." His writings include little books like The Meal Jesus Left Us (re: communion... not sure if that's the exact title) and large tomes directed to the scholarly, like The Resurrection of the Son of God. Some of you thinker/reader types (InvisibleD, TBone, Wrds... others) might enjoy his perspective, if you don't already. A great introduction to Wright is his fairly recent Simply Christian, which is modeled loosely on Mere Christianity. There is PLENTY online about him and from him that you can access free of charge, and a number of Wright discussion groups. N.T. Wright books at Amazon (or go to B and N if you like!) Would welcome discussion about him, either in the threads or by email. I think he makes a LOT of sense, though I sometimes feel over my head.

Rather than edit, I'll add a PS. One more comment, one question. The way you refer to the teaching of the renewing-of-the-mind was really a later twist. It BECAME that to many. The original idea was that regardless of how things might FEEL, that we were to return to the Word, and "renew" our minds to it. If we felt defeated, then, we needed to get our eyes back on God and His Word, and realize that we were more than conquerors. That earlier meaning has some validity, but even so, it's a gloss, and not what Paul meant at all. Your excerpts make more sense to me now than that does. I don't see what you're getting at as far as "is this what Paul had in mind." Would you explain?

The term is "mental assent," assenting mentally to an idea. Assent is to agree or "give in." (OK, you can call me a curmudeon, now! I deserve it.) I missed that thread, though I've lately been enjoying some of the older threads. We were taught that it was active rather than passive. My current understanding is not so cut-and-dry. We have a part in it, to be sure, but the renewing is a work of the spirit. Your excerpts are wonderful, and I heartily agree that our emotional self must not bow to the intellectual self. (Not that it really could... it's the same self. And that, I guess is my point.) We are to love God with all our heart, our soul, our mind, and our strength--not four different "parts" of us, but with our whole selves. Why did it take me so long to see that? Thanks for sharing that, Abi. No wonder everyone I know thinks you are a darling!

California Sitting in a park in paris, france Reading the news and it sure looks bad They won’t give peace a chance That was just a dream some of us had Still a lot of lands to see But I wouldn’t want to stay here It’s too old and cold and settled in it’s ways here Oh, but california California I’m coming home I’m going to see the folks I dig I’ll even kiss a sunset pig California I’m coming home I met a redneck on a grecian isle Who did the goat dance very well He gave me back my smile But he kept my camera to sell Oh the rogue, the red red rogue He cooked good omelettes and stews And I might have stayed on with him there But my heart cried out for you, california Oh california I’m coming home Oh make me feel good rock’n roll band I’m your biggest fan California, I’m coming home Chorus: Oh it gets so lonely When you’re walking And the streets are full of strangers All the news of home you read Just gives you the blues Just gives you the blues So I bought me a ticket I caught a plane to spain Went to a party down a red dirt road There were lots of pretty people there Reading rolling stone, reading vogue They said, "how long can you hang around? " I said "a week, maybe two, Just until my skin turns brown Then I’m going home to california" California I’m coming home Oh will you take me as I am Strung out on another man California I’m coming home Chorus: Oh it gets so lonely When you’re walking And the streets are full of strangers All the news of home you read More about the war And the bloody changes Oh will you take me as l am? Will you take me as l am? Will you? California Joni Mitchell... amazing lyricist. How about this one? From here to Venezela, there's nothing more to see Than a hundred thousand islands, flung like jewels upon the sea For you and me

Oak, in the Advanced Class, VPW associated alcoholism with "possession." Outfield, addictions are often one of those things in life that really make us wonder. The addict knows just as well as anyone else that the drug (whether it be alcohol, gambling...) is destroying them, yet they do it. Like the Columbine incident, we who are not in that web of bondage cannot fathom how this can be. Seizures can also fall into this category, as you mentioned. We don't understand it. However, in some cases, medical discoveries have uncovered certain mysteries of metabolism, etc. and can help the afflicted medically. The practice of casting out of spirits has been a checkered one. Certainly, Jesus did it, if we consider the Bible a reliable record. Then, remember the seven sons of Sceva???? One of the most reasonable voices in the healing field is a guy by the name of Francis MacNutt. Wish I could remember the title of the most recent book I read by him, but he makes a case for how believers have been talked out of healing, particularly during the Reformation! Modern believer practicioners have often read books by Derek Prince (They Shall Expel Demons) and Frank Hammond (Pigs in the Parlor). Prince makes a good distinction regarding "demonization" and doesn't like the term "possession." "Not everything is written in your books, Stephen." (Quoted from Master and Commander, with Russel Crowe) My "take" is that it is possible for those who are joined with God to help deliver the oppressed, whatever form their oppression takes. Jesus said, "if I with the finger of God cast out spirits... you know that the kingdom of God has come unto you." (from memory.... something to that effect) Those who love as Jesus loved can do as Jesus did. But it's not something you can teach in an "Advanced Class." Love really does not lend itself to academic discovery. It's the realm of mothers and brothers and well, lovers. my 1-and-a-half cents

Oh will you take me as I am; strung out on anther man... (last hint)

Eagle. Sorry to hear that. When the chips are down, you find out who your friends are! (And when you have to move a houseful of furniture!) If you do find a church where people seem to "get it" (and "get" you), it's a precious thing. My prayers are with you, and I hope you find that.

dmiller FUNNY! :lol: Dr. Wierwille's historical context was in the middle of the self-help revolution. Think and Grow Rich, Winning Through Intimidation, How to Win Friends and Influence People. Some of these ideas were profoundly ungodly. Notable exception: A few years ago I met Charlie "Tremendous" Jones in Mechanicsburg, PA. It was a real treat. That man loves the Lord, and he loves people. He got better with age!

Thanks, Wrds, they did turn out rather nicely, and though Liz and I did our best, it had to be God and His grace who did the heavy lifting! The two young men that are now a part of our family are sons-in-law from God! I was really hoping to touch base with some of my Corps brothers and sisters... I guess there's hope, still. We were in residence in a very tough time. I'm sure there were a lot of mangled hearts. Our Corps coordinators left in the middle of the year, and we had a succession of Corps coordinators filling in from the Moynihans to the Burtons to the Clapps (again) after Tom and Linda left. We had some fine staff, there, too. The Kliewers, John and Joy Niec, Paul Brooks. I pray they are all well!

I'd like to chime in after Wds' excellent post and make a couple of other reading recommendations: Dallas Willard The Divine Conspiracy Hanna Smith The Christian's Secret to a Happy Life Author's name escapes me: The Pursuit of Holiness Jerry Bridges? Dan <--- sold a bunch of TWI stuff on ebay once and brought in over $700. Might do another one... rescued about ten WOW coffee mugs from a friend's trash can and some lingering items I have found around here since. If I had any Harry Potter, I'd sell that too, with no warnings attached!

I think I understand the rules, so Suda's next is the official thread. Can I offer a "bonus" lyric? Title and author/artist I'm gonna see the folks I dig. I'll even kiss the Sunset pigs.

WG: Barry and Kathy were in my WOW family in 1976. (It was the one year "Regional Minuteman" program, for WOW vets only. Barry was a vet.) They were newly married, and didn't make it through the year. I remember them fondly. We were "stationed" in Huntington Beach, CA. Second paragraph was not from my Corps. I don't think they ever went in. I can see how you might read it that way. Thanks, Waysider. I think the GSC is pretty egalitarian. You're welcome "in here" anytime! No green tag required! Some other folks we're still close to are Bill and Anne DeNenno, Dick and Charlotte DeNenno, Bob and Shirley Straus, Rob and Sandy Wray, Rob and Alex (Alexandra) Burns, Rita Migliore, Jerry Toerner, Richard Lane, Tom and Linda Lane, Bruce and Cindy Panasuk.

Paw, perhaps Larry wanted to inform others as he informed himself. I've wondered that myself. Are you sure that you can't access them? I find that a little difficult to believe. PMSing notwithstanding, of course

I also appreciated TBone's post on the other thread. Paul's "forgetting those things which are behind" cannot mean that he truly forgot, nor failed to reflect on his past, especially his former persecution of the Church, which he cites as the reason he was "least of the apostles." That is in 1Corinthians. Interestingly, as time went on, it appears that his humility increases. In one of the prison epistles (written later) (Eph 3) he writes: Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ Then at the end of his writings, if not his life, he has this to say: 1Tim1:12ff: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. From "least of the apostles" to "LESS than the LEAST of all saints" to "chief sinner"! Rascal points out that the reflection TBone speaks about is necessary for proper repentance. This goes back to the idea of "sin consciousness" that was so promoted by the Way. We cited Romans 8:1, but our consciences were not purged from sin, truly, by the sacrifice of Christ, but by "forgetting" about them! Another good point was made, namely, that Paul's relation to his past (his laurels as well as his shame) did not get in the way of his action to "press toward the mark," his affirmative action, which I also think is his point in the Phillipians quote. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter. "Sin consciousness" per se, is a good thing. Having our consciences purified by the blood of Christ, is likewise good. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)

Hey Tom, glad to see you. I agree with Groucho that there are a lot of good churches out there. But you know, darn it, they all seem to have something WRONG with them! <_< One of the biggest challenges I've faced since leaving the Way (I never really left the Way, if you know what I mean) was working out my salvation in regard to my brothers and sisters in Christ. Liz and I departed from "the party line" on a number of matters with our local splinter group, and we started visiting all kinds of churches. We did this for a number of years, and we still go "jaunting" from time to time. At the time, our children were teens, and we experienced the grace of God together. Often, we'd go out for lunch afterwards and review how we felt about the various services. We were kind of adventurous, and visited quite a diversity of churches, from big mega churches with the full orchestra (fading in right on cue as the pastor wound up his sermon) to Pentecostal Holiness Deliverance Tabernacle, with the preacher handling the tamborine, his daughter's boyfriend (about 16) on the drum kit, and "Martha" on the organ. We visited Methodist, COG, Lutheran, Evangelical Free... numerous others. God taught us a lot about ourselves, and about "His people." When you are healed by a man of God preaching the Word, who doesn't know one tenth of the "Word" that you know, it suddenly becomes clear: maybe knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifies! When the spirit of God literally blows through a tiny church of simple believers, and you have the grace to see it, I believe you're getting somewhere. Sure, doctrinal issues are important. But the trinitarian question and "soul sleep" is periferal to love and grace and peace. TWI taught us to be nitpickers. The trinitarian formula is nothing more than man trying to "figure out" God, and the "mystery of godliness" that Paul talked about. "...which was manifest in the flesh..." You may find congregations that accept homosexuality as something that God has done. You'll find churches that believe that if you don't worship on Saturday, you're "outside the pale." And you'll find some that God dwells among. A lot of times, people assumed that we were "shopping" for a church, but it was really just an exercise in godliness for us. God taught us SO many things! One time, Liz asked me after a service if I'd like to go back at 2 PM for a presentation that the visiting preacher was going to do. I told her "WILD HORSES could not drag me back there at 2 PM!" But many times, we were humbled by the grace of God evident in His presence, and His love for the believers, regardless of their not-right-on-ishness. I would recommend visiting a number of fellowships, large and small. You may find something right in your back yard that works for you.

! now ya got me thinkin' :o

Linda, nice rant! Thanks for sharing with us. I thought along those lines a number of years ago, but became reluctant to mix the two figures (bride/body). You put it very clearly, and I may reconsider! Oldies, thanks for clarifying. There could be quite a number of reasons why a person might mark that one false.