anotherDan

I tuned out of this thread for quite a while... I see that it's now "A few big things I learned in CFS, and do you still believe them?" Reading johniam's "beautiful" comment is a shocker to me. It was no big deal? That was "healing"? Man, I do not get that at all. What a bizarre place this is. And yet, I'm glad that some of the swordfighting is being done. I don't remember any big things that I learned and still believe from the CFS class, though I took it a number of times. I do remember at some point post-TWI, that I taught some teens some of the things that were in that class, and a few days later I called them together again and apologised to them because I felt convicted in my heart that I was wrong... I don't even remember what the bad doctrine was... maybe something to do with masturbation or something, but it was clear to me that I needed to wake up, and I felt I did, and apologised. One of the teens asked me in that second meeting to be specific about what I shared with them that was wrong, and I did. Wish I could remember now what it was... maybe I've repressed it out of shame. I loved Dr. Wierwille. I knew he wasn't perfect, not by a long shot, but I loved the heck out of him. Even today, I love him and cherish what I still admire about him, but I've had to reckon with his shortcomings more carefully in regard to both doctrine and practice. CFS in my opinion, was a bad class. So was PFAL for that matter. Both were bold and strident, but both missed the mark. On the one hand, CFS (in my opinion) did not paint a godly picture of what a Christian family should be about, and what sex should be about. PFAL did not teach us how to properly handle the Scriptures, how to relate to God, nor His Son, nor "the world." There was some good there that I've tried to keep, but so much hooey. I'm on topic, right?

Thanks, WW

I would have stayed if Craig would have used his abilities, which were vast, to preserve the good and chuck the bad, make it a real biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry that baptized believers, loved all other Christians and non-Christians. And if we were encouraged to read folks like Bruce M. Metzger, F.F. Bruce, etc, reinstituted a reformed version of ROA and the WOW program, sending out people to work and heal and bless folks all over the world out of a genuine concern and love for our fellowmen. But, of course, that didn't happen. I would have stuck it out even if it took us a while to work out all the details.

waysider, I agree (and I also have no inkling on Suda's clue). Linda Ronstadt and Aaron Neville did some nice stuff, too, but Marvin and Tammy were something else.

Yeah, Spurgeon has a way of doing that!

Actually, on further reflection, I think my reply should have agreed more with WW's "bill of goods" concept. I'm still processing, I guess. I don't like all the naysaying and judging, and it hurts my heart to have been deceived, but I have to admit that now, I think I was. Somehow, underneath my sorrow and regret, there is still faith and thanksgiving, because God is smarter than men. He has sustained me and He remains as my Teacher, my Friend, and my Authority.

The doctor told him he was going to die, and he thought about all the things he had accomplished in life. He was a wealthy man who had worked very hard to obtain what he had accumulated, but he was also a godly man who worked as hard for Adonai as for himself. He also gave much to the poor and to his congregation, and he was known in his community to be one to whom any could go for advice, a loan, even a kind word. But he was dying. He knew that it was not quite kosher, but he asked the angel of death if he could please bring some of the wealth he had accumulated with him, for he had worked hard for it. The angel told him that it had never been done before, but he would see what he could do, since he was the most righteous man he had known in centuries. Finally, the angel came back and told him, "Adonai has granted you permission, but you may bring only what you can pack in one suitcase." So the man found the largest of his suitcases. He packed it and let the angel know that he was ready. And he died. At the pearly gates, St. Peter saw him coming. "Ho there! You cannot bring anything up here from the earth!" he said. The man explained that he had special permission. St. Peter replied, "This is highly irregular! I will have to ask the Boss." Peter came back momentarily, and he said, "The Boss says that you may bring it in, but I have to inspect it first." The man opened the suitcase, and St. Peter looked inside. It was jam-packed with bright, shining gold bouillon! St. Peter stood back with a puzzled look on his face. "I guess you can take it in," he said, "but why do you want to bring in street pavement?" Come on, Socks, T-Bone, InvisibleDan, all you others. Are you going to take the quiz? "Is that your final answer?"

Wrds, somehow I missed this post.... I have not read it, but I will make an effort to do so, on your recommendation. I too have a great deal of respect for Derek and his wife. Many of the folks that are a part of our local fellowships have never heard of the Way. We learn so much from them, and they learn, sometimes, from us. At one discussion, a Phillipino couple shared their experience of a spontaneous utterance of tongues that blew me away. I don't know if "led into" really applied in that case, but I know what you mean. Thanks.

Sky, you've got some good thoughts, there, but I'm on the way out the door, too. Will check in later. Abi, here you go: http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/

That's what I admire about you, Abi. You're like the John Madden of GSC. You "get" people. You know what the lineman's going through. Having a little fun here, but still waiting on others to weigh in on some of these serious matters... They're hard, some of them. My answers would all be True except for the last two, where I would have to admit to Unsure. I wish some of your smart people would straighten me out! Where's Linda? The name of Jesus Christ. We Christians are told to do all things in his name. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Well, to me, it was the reality. Did I fall short of that kindness, that love, that honesty? Yes. Many times. So did others. It has taken me a LONG time to grow up, and I have no excuse. (And I still have a long way to go.) I almost feel bad because I didn't have to endure the depths of depravity others on this board have spoken about. And I pretty much completely missed TWI2, for which I am most grateful. It sounds absolutely horrible. What may have been going on behind the scenes was not a part of my experience. I am still growing out of my own foolishness, as well as the stuff that was wrong with the teaching and practice in the Way. I just read your comment on another thread, WW, where you said that you wished you'd have been a part of the Way Ministry that they experienced. (Even though you were spared the heavier damage that others suffered.) I wish you had, too. But your experience and others who may have suffered more than you did should be heard, and you should do all you can to see that others are not taken advantage of, lied to, or anything else that is contrary to God's will. If not you, certainly others feel that the whole thing was a sham. I can respect that, particularly with all the testimonies that have been made about people being sexual predators, copyright poachers, and money-hungry, self-absorbed "leadership." No doubt at least some of that was true. I did not escape the fallout for being naive, either. I have no standing to expect anyone to move beyond that stuff, because it's taken me many years to move beyond much lesser damage that I suffered as a result of others' shortcomings, as well as my own. IMO, we should all be able to listen to each other, and how we experienced what we did with a view to understanding, comforting, and encouraging one another, so we can all move ahead and on to something much better. Was I sold a bill of goods? You seem to think so, and in some measure I would agree with you. But I disagree with your implication that the Way Ministry that I experienced didn't build godly, profitable qualities in my life. Yes I am, and moreso, as you said. And I'm no longer shackled and limited to their "box" as I called it. And I'm glad I'm not. I still have a long way to go, as I said, and perhaps with your help I will get there. And if some way I can be there for you, I would like that.

The "fat rabbit" and fawns will enjoy the grasses in the newly cleared area. Sorry to hear some homes were lost, and very grateful that you were able to come home to your furry friends and your home. Prayers of thanks are in order! ((((shifra))))

I was drawn (1973) by the possibility of taking the Bible seriously, and there were marvelous discoveries to be made therein. I was drawn by the simplicity of the love of the believers, their kindness and patience and honesty. Their joy and laughter were contagious. I enjoyed the big stuff... the ROA, the programs and all, but that wasn't what kept me. It was those original things that I was drawn to, and I stuck it out in forebearance and love until I could no longer see how those things could continue. I should have seen the handwriting on the wall much sooner, but I didn't. The lobster analogy applies to me. I left in 1990, or thereabouts. But I still love loving people, and am still partial to honesty, taking the Bible seriously, continued marvelous discoveries in it (it is a treasure, just like we thought it was!), and kindness and patience with people, whether they "know the truth" or not. Lo and behold, some of the marvelous discoveries I'm making today were there all along, outside the Way box, in the writings of faithful men and women, and written on the lives of people all around me. Maybe it's still possible that "this little light of mine" can remain lit in a dark and anxious world.

Did Diana do that? I think that Marvin Gaye / Tammy Terrel got the most airtime with it. I thought that that would be an easy one. Good job, girl!It's all your's Suda!(Don't know what I'm doing wrong, but the clickable link works) Hey, it works! Thanks bulwinkle!

I have a problem with "the formula," too. Hark back to our discussion on this thread regarding being "born again," and as you know, we've been discussing it on the Calvinist thread. In GSC jargon, an "innie" still belongs to TWI, but there are other innies, particularly among various denominations who are sure they are the one, true church. (Saint Peter showing someone around heaven.... goes past a doorway and says to his guest, "Shhhhhh! That room is for the [Catholics, Southern Baptists, etc.] They like to think they're the only ones here.") The Pharisee to whom Jesus was speaking was a pious man, but he wasn't apparently willing to be "born again." We religious/devout people ought to see ourselves in the Pharisees of Jesus' day... at least to accept that it is possible that those things are addressed to us as a warning, if not a condemnation. (And yes, I used the words "addressed to us" quite literally. The Gospels were written after the Pauline corpus.) Lord, I repent of my dispensationalist sins!

You appeared to answer while I was editing, and I was distracted by a phone call. Note the changes, above. Sorry about that! Man, that font looks horrible!

I'm brewing coffee at the moment. It is Starbucks breakfast blend. I grind the beans, and use a French press. There is bound to be diversity in the UU denomination... hey, they celebrate diversity, and I do too, on some level (the eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you.') There may even be a congregation somewhere, where I could sit still, even after coffee. But I think there are better fields to cultivate. Like you, I would go to church for something other than what they're offering. Forget about respect for the scriptures. Forget about the Gospel message. And if our thread-starter, sky4it, doesn't like Calvinism.... how much more "dangerous" is a bunch of folks who figure no matter what they do, we'll all wind up "in heaven" (or Nirvana, or the Eternal Now, etc.). John Spong, (Why Christianity Must Change or Die Read the review.) runs a similar course. It goes like this: We've evolved beyond the Bible. What we believe is better, because it's kinder, gentler, yada yada. Truth is relative. I believe that God is smarter than me. Call me old-fashioned; call me superstitious, just don't call me late for dinner. I'm not about to make God up in my own image, nor confine Him to my pea-brain. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. We might get into "go to heaven" in the survey thread at some point, but (with your permission, sky4) it could be discussed here as it relates to the Calvinist question. Specifically, it goes to the issue of salvation. You can Google "Anthony Buzzard" for his POV. What makes sense to me is that a "heavenly reward" can only be understood to be to be blessed "from above." "Going to heaven" is not what God promises; it is not the Good News. Our inheritance is earthly, in the sense that it is real. It's the same promise that was made to Jacob, extended to "whomsoever." Eph.3:1ff IMO, you're on the right track. It's not BOOM! you're "born again." It is a process, and the promise of salvation is not just for the future, but for all time. Behold NOW is the day of salvation.

Thanks for sharing that, Wrds. I can see why Abi's comments reminded you of that poem. There is a denomination that calls itself Unitarian Universalists. The "unitarian" part has to do with monotheism, and in particular the denial that Jesus is God (he's too exclusionary). The "universalist" part is what Abi described. All will be saved, "even the Hitlers..." While I could not sit still at a UU service, I'm fond of a Universalist by the name of William Barclay. He wrote very insightful commentaries, and his translation of the New Testament is highly regarded. A short clip from his autobiography about this aspect of his theology is quoted here: And here is a delightful but critical short article about Barclay. Many will dismiss such thinking out of hand. They will refer back to the magic formula of Romans 10:9, and say that only those who confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead will be saved. A Universalist might reply that "every knee shall bow" and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (see Philippians 2:10,11).

'cause we, we've got the right foundation, and with love and determination...

Abi, can you tell us in your own words what has intrigued you about Cman's presentation of Jesus? Wrds, if I still lived in SouthernCal, I'd have to look you up. I would definitely try to get myself invited over for Passover! We did Shabbat dinner friday evenings, too, and welcomed our rest. Our prayers were always in the line of, "Father, we don't know what we're doing with this sabbath thing. We want to learn to live in you and in your son, Jesus Christ, who is our rest. Teach us, lord, how to rest in you." We made a point of preparing to rest... cooking ahead of time, that type of thing, but mindful of many of the things Jesus taught about the sabbath, we did not strain at gnats. And if we spotted a sheep in the ditch, we didn't hesitate to do a little work. That link about blessing the children was wonderful, Wds, thanks for taking the trouble to post it.

You're right, TheEvan! That IS the good stuff. "eaching" should be "teaching"

That would be a pretty safe bet. I'm glad you wrote that reply so I could see better where you're coming from. I don't think real life Calvinists would argue with personal responsibility. They're not as one dimensional as that. Again, read nearly anything by Spurgeon and you will quickly see that he is quite a fan of personal responsibility. But I'm not here to defend Calvinism, just to discuss it. I don't consider myself a Calvinist, either. If you're interested in investigating further, I would recommend going to the "horse's mouth," i.e. Calvin's writings, rather than a work that discusses Calvin and quotes him, but it would be difficult to say where to begin! A short work that addresses your concerns and could help inform your judgment on TULIP is Arthur Pink's The Sovereignty of God, $11 in paperback at Amazon. Then read Our Accountability to God by the same author. Where I see the problem (and maybe you do, too) is in the various theories of salvation. Whatever we may reckon that to be, if we regard the Bible as a revelation of God's will and plan, we're also going to have to reckon with verses like the following, as well as a great many other verses throughout the New Testament. 2Cor.5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. Those who call themselves Christian and who water down verses like these with their theories of salvation do it to their own peril.

You'll let us know when it's over? in my prayers, Dan

One illustration that I have appreciated regarding salvation has to do with the Grand Canyon. It is said that even the best broadjumper in the world can't clear the chasm. Another one is a joke that goes like this: A guy gets to the pearly gates, and sure enough, there is Saint Peter. Peter: "Here's how it works. You need 1,000 points to make it into heaven. You tell me all the good things you've done, and I give you a certain number of points for each item, depending on how good it was. When you reach 1,000 points, you get in." "Okay," the man said, "I was married to the same woman for 50 years and never cheated on her, even in my heart." "That's wonderful, that's worth three points!" "Three points? Well, I attended church all my life and supported its ministry with my tithe and service." "Terrific!" said Peter, "that's certainly worth a point." "One point? Wow! How about this: I started a soup kitchen in my city and worked in a shelter for homeless veterans." "Fantastic, that's good for two more points," Peter said. "Two points!!" the man cried, "At this rate the only way I will get into heaven is by the grace of God!" Peter: "Step on in!" Doctrinally, I don't subscribe to the idea of "getting into heaven," but that's for another thread. Calvinist theology is a reaction against those who feel that they can be saved by their works. They radically believe that salvation is of faith, and not by works. It follows obviously that faith is not works. But putting this together with the Book of James, "faith without works is dead." I personally am very sympathetic to Calvinist theology. I think Charles Spurgeon was ordained of God, and spoke for God. And Spurgeon was a staunch Calvinist. But I agree that something is not right about God not requiring anything of us. Otherwise, many of Jesus' words have no meaning. "Narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (that may be a paraphrase) His words about "counting the cost" would likewise become rather empty.

Spot Survey: Reveal yourself, doctrinally, part 2 It will be obvious that this is directed to those who call themselves Christians, but all are welcome to play, if they care to. I regard these questions to be harder, and also that they are less likely to prompt a response that includes the words "does it matter?" (Except, maybe, the dinosaur question. Though I'm sure some would feel that way about others.) Jesus Christ is personally aware of my pain. He also knows where I in my weakness have forsaken him, and where I have failed to do the right thing. He is aware of sacrifices I have made. T/F/U I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U There is coming a day when the universe will be made right, and I will exist as a part of it. T/F/U Sickness and other bad things that have befallen me are not necessarily because of wrongs I have done. T/F/U Dinosaurs lived in a period which could be called "the first heaven and earth." T/F/U As a parent, it is never right to discipline a child by hitting him or her. T/F/U God can and does heal cancer. T/F/U None of my loved ones who have died have perished forever. T/F/U Ultimately, I will be held responsible for people whom I have hurt. T/F/U Requiring a narrative answer: Cite an example of something that can be done "in the name of Jesus Christ," and explain what it means to do that action in his name.