anotherDan

Suda, Thanks for your analysis posts. Your attitude and approach reminds me of some of the beatitudes!

Whoa! Oldiesman, STEP AWAY from the microphone! :lol: Care to elucidate?

Well, if he had been dead, he certainly wouldn't be aware of it! He apparently considered that he could have commited such a sin, and it didn't result in his immediate death, anyway. Interesting quotations, thank you! (Nice to have somebody reading that stuff!) The next verse in 1 John says there is a sin that is "not unto death." Ultimately, my concern is with the prayer for a brother. God then gives him life. It's a great verse... Guess I'll have to break out the commentaries!

This thread is about four months cold, but I hope you don't mind if I open it up again. I enjoyed reading it, especially the interaction of Danny and T-Bone. 1Cr 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. I think these passages from the Pauline Epistles "alludes" to "this rather significant mind-blowing conversion experience." As to the premise of the thread, I respect Lindy's question, and his own place in his journey to live authenticly. Sometimes you really have to "chuck it all" and start from scratch. (George, Arr Example!) I still feel that I can harmonize the Pauline Christ with the Evangelists' Jesus. The Gospels and the Epistles were written for different reasons. Paul apparently had no desire to document either his own conversion experience, nor to write a Life of Christ. He did give us the words of the Lord Jesus "that it is more blessed to give than to receive," but it was (like his quotations from the OT) in reference to his ministry via letter as a pastor and teacher. He also wrote the first surviving account of the Lord's Supper in 1Cor.11. Your icebreaker ("my story" "about me" ? I forget what it's called) Lindy, was even colder than this thread, but I just read it. It's how I got here, in fact, through your profile. I learned a lot there, and I thank you for writing it! The most elegant writing comes from those who are really feeling something! So let's say we throw Paul out, for discussion's sake. Can we know Jesus from the Gospels? How do we relate to this Messiah/Teacher/Example? It doesn't seem like you have quite "chucked it all" as Arr Example has. Could you tell us more about how Lindy vs. the Cosmos is developing?

Right, Dan. Why spiritualize it? If a guy is sleeping with someone else's wife, and the husband comes home and shoots him.... don't bother praying for him! Is that it?

Wds, and Larry, thanks for your input. Larry, as far as I'm concerned, you're in perfect conformity to the thread topic! I didn't want to limit responses. "Take a crack" at some of the others when you're inspired (that's when the best posts are made anyway!) Could someone explain to me what 1John 5:16 means? Johnny Jumpup? Anyone? Of course, this relates to the prayer question. The "he" in "he shall give him life" would appear to be God, and the "him," the brother who is being prayed for. Some comments: The "sin unto death" and "not unto death" is another issue, but I'd surely like comments on that, too. I do remember what the "party line" was ("the unforgivable sin") and if that's your take, please say so (or not!) This is a form of intercessory prayer. Correct? Wrds, loved your blog! Have you cracked open Chesterton's Orthodoxy yet? edit: Maybe Linda did get zapped! I would guess not... someone preparing a dissertation might have limited time to post to message boards! Don't leave us hanging, girl!

I was a WOW in Little Rock in 74-75 with 27 other WOWs that I still love, and lots of other cool folks. Would love to hear from any of you. Click my picture to get my email address if you don't want to post publicly. I saw Denise Pearson yesterday. She's David Pearson's sister. I have no idea where the rest of you are. What a long, strange trip it's been. "Bet your going fishin' most of the time, I'm a goin' fishin' too."

I really should bow out. Of all of it. Maybe hang out in "doctrine" a little, when I can. I wish you all well.

OK, I've GOT to go to work! Rascal, thank you. Yes, I concede that without reservation. I have a LOT of difficulty with your posts, sometimes, as you can imagine, but I'm also convinced that you are a sister who is doing her best to work out her own wholeness, and to assist others to do the same. I would gladly take your hand and pray with you. You're a compassionate person, and I admire you for that. "But Now I See", if you don't see that some of the stuff you've posted qualify as rumors, you need a dictionary or something. Put me on Ignore. edit: derailing this thread? I'm obviously not posting what you as the thread starter wants to hear, but I'm perfectly ON TOPIC, in my opinion. I'll leave if you request. It's your thread.

I offer the following without endorsing all the views of Stephen Stills, as a humorous respite from the serious issue at hand, and to demonstrate that I'm not just a bibleverse slinging Wordhead. It never got any airtime, but it's musically and lyrically powerful. You've got to hear him sing it! Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Seen Enough Lyrics (Stephen Stills) I lost my innocence over intolerance All the indignities heaped on the black man We went to church they all prayed for the white man The cops and the preachers Were most of 'em in the Klan What's a kid s'posed to think when the adults Are all such hypocrites impossibly smug I have seen enough I have seen enough of this Had enough Quite enough, I swear The next generation, the woodstock nation A little bit flaky, but no hesitation Stop the war, it wasn't worth dyin' for The paranoia of the cold warriors Arrogant old men with domino theories Fractured fairy tales tryin' to kill me I have seen enough I have seen enough of this I have read enough History to see right through this You got outcast upset People you never met Locked in the basement Hot-wired to the net Isolated, infuriated The punchline to the joke Is how they are gonna smoke Every last stuck-up snob ever dissed them Look in their eyes how could you miss them Ain't you seen enough I have seen enough of this I've had quite enough Seen enough We got dead-eyed, dead drunk Dead stupid cyberpunks Fed-up killer geeks Gigabyte meth freaks Home alone in a world of their own Up all night in the thick of the fight Fantasy combat, veteran psychos Removed from reality by silicon diodes Seen enough I have seen enough of this Have you read enough So, you don't know nothin' about it You got powerbook potentates Pointedly obviate Every opinion They have about anything Even if they don't know [expletive] Stay in the limelight Got your own website Got all the answers, ain't got a lick of sense Practicing psychiatry without a license Ain't you seen enough Had enough of this I have had enough Ain't it bad enough for you yet So you got overfed Talking heads on television Ignoring the obvious with pained expressions Ask the ones that sell the damn guns By the truckload every day Fast as they can make 'em What's a kid s'posed to think When the adults Refuse all accountability When they [expletive] up Ain't you seen enough Ain't you had enough of this Goddam tired enough Have we done enough about this I have seen enough

I see several of us are up together, this morning. T-Bone, I appreciate the context you pointed out. Good of you to add to the conversation. "But Now I See" I'm sorry that I appear that way to you; I certainly don't intend to be the kind of person you view me to be. But the "shame on you" is not working. As I said before, I took a risk. Now I have to accept the results of that risk, and I am OK with that. Will you accept my recommendation above, and revisit the thread with a view to inviting God to teach you something about yourself?

Dooj, I appreciate your courtesy, and want to extend the same to you. I want it to be authentic compassion, not just rhetorical device. I want to join WITH you against evil. I suppose I "processed" in my sleep last night, because although I have a work week to begin, I’m typing over my first cup of coffee, having awoken with a burden. "Processing" is a cool postmodern (and I would guess post-Freudian) word. Our friends locally have been lately on a certain "processing" kick that is quite a different "process." It has to do with the visitation of memories; I would call it "brutal visitation." That is, they dare to go fully to their pain, whether it is child abuse, sexual abuse, or whatever. The idea is that we tend to repress memories that make us uncomfortable, and thereby accept the conclusions we reached about it as a child. In other words, in a vulnerable state, we are traumatized, and never revisit the situation once we are a little more grown up. And we then live out our lives in sometimes outrageously disfunctional ways as a result. The "friend" (not a technical term… it just sounds more correct to call them that rather than "subject" or "the one being worked on") is encouraged to really feel what they are feeling. They might be asked, "how did you feel when this was occurring?" "If that feeling could cry out, what would it say?" Believe me, some of these "fellowships" with people taking the time to support one another, not challenge or marginalize the other’s feelings, etc., can be extremely distressing. Distress is not the goal, of course. Healing is. God is "invited" (I know, as if He needs an invitation… and yet how often we "process" without Him!) into that memory. What would God have us know about that situation? Where was God, what was God "feeling" when it occurred to us? That type of thing. Their may be some waiting for the answer. It may not come in that session, or only in small ways. Sometimes it comes very very powerfully, and provides profound resolution. God being sovereign, and obviously beyond us, may say the unexpected. From a merely psychological point of view, this type of honest revisitation seems potentially profitable to me. It allows the person to examine events and their childhood reactions and possibly lifelong convictions that shaped them and made them who they are today. The value lies in being willing, with our "adult" minds, to reconsider the situation. Example: a person may have been deeply wounded by the fact that their mother worked nights, slept during the day, and neglected them when they were a child. A good introduction to this kind of ministry is The Life Model: Living with the heart Jesus gave you, by Wilder. He distinguishes "Type 1 trauma" from "Type 2." One is a passive trauma, such as neglect, whereas the other is actual infliction of trauma. Either can be devastating. But from a spiritual point of view, "allowing" God in the process opens it up to even greater results, and we have seen them. The supporting roles of friends who simply care and who are willing to "go there with you" can be a time-consuming sacrifice, but what are friends for? Care is taken not to "correct" the friend, and pains are taken not to be "the mouthpiece" of God for that person, to analyze, diagnose, or otherwise interfere with their own receiving from God "the answer," or His wisdom. This is done with an authentic belief that God is quite capable of reaching us in the deepest hell. It has the significant benefit of real progress (healing), because if someone hears it from me, they may only "be convinced." But if they themselves hear it from God, well, "that settles it." Not long ago, I would scoff at such an exercise. (Being honest here!) The results have sometimes been dramatic, sometimes progressive. I am, however, an unfinished work, and my harsher, less compassionate former stance is softening. WordWolf’s long post, just above, seems detestable to me – character assassination, pure and simple, finely honed over years and thousands of posts at the GSC. I also suspect lying spirits to be among us. But it is possible that this form of revisiting certain pain can have positive benefits, I suppose. Honestly, I don’t know. Trying to be fair and open-minded in a good sense, maybe this "process" will help and has helped some people. I suppose another 20 years will pass, and WordWolf or his/her successor will have the story more finely tuned and filled out as others add what they "saw," and as others come forward with new details and anecdotes. Will that be helpful? It’s been suggested here and there by the anti-anti’s that if the most venomous accusers’ lives were as open to scrutiny as his was, they would probably not compare favorably to him. I can’t help suspecting that to be true, too. The reply usually runs, "yeah, but I didn't (blah blah... citing the worst sins that have been proven to their satisfaction.)" Those who reply that way are unlikely to be moved by Jesus' words about being angry with a brother, which is akin to murder. Like other religious people, they will reply that they are angry for a reason (not "without a cause.") My suggestion is definitely to authentically "invite God" into "the process." There are as many ways to do this as there are post-ers here, I suppose, but here is a walk-through of one concrete method. Go back to the beginning and read all these posts again (this is a short thread, comparatively!) Don’t bother judging others, but allow their words to serve as a context for your own. When you get to your posts, stop and ask your Father what He thinks about your post. Ask Him to reveal your own heartstrings to you. Just ask for His input, and then wait on Him. Authentically listen. He may surprise you and show up. Some of you still confess Jesus as your Lord, and have no problem asking him directly, while others feel it doesn’t work that way, and have to "ask God directly." Either way is fine. Others deny God altogether, and yet, even you can do the exercise and ask yourself, "is this who I really am, or do I desire to change?" or even, "is this the reality I choose to represent?" On one level, I agree with ex10 that the beauty of this place is the liberty to think for ourselves, to hold our own convictions and not be pressured by others into conforming with their belief system. (I hope I’m representing you fairly, Ex!) As more of an anti-anti, I’ve been given latitude and courtesy, and I thank you and the folks as GSC for it. I truly hope that each of you can enter into the kind of rest that God has offered in Jesus Christ, and if in some way I can be there for you, please let me know. Wilder’s book is based on the theme of growing up with one another, and encourages a community of faith that lives with the heart Jesus gave it. It’s a good model, but not the only one. In my opinion, it’s definitely worth a look, especially for you, Dooj. Such a community could be encouraged online as well as locally. You seem to be a person who wants to "get" another. I’m with you on that. We treasure the friends that "get" us, don’t we? They show up when we don’t "want" them to, but when we need them to! They don’t argue with what we’re feeling; they understand. They love us. Good stuff! got to find the lyrics of that song, "Seen Enough."

No offense taken. None at all. (I tend to accuse myself before others accuse me!) I'm serious about the private communication. A lot of times, we act differently in "public"... we need to save face, etc. I really would welcome corresponding with any of you main players / high-number post-ers, as well as with "lurkers" who are uncomfortable here. I'm still in the family... trying to be. And I need help myself, sorting out a lot of issues! It's 1:30 here in DE.... "up all night in the thick of the fight" (great Stephen Stills song... "seen enough") But I'll check back tomorrow and see if I need to reply to anyone. May the Lord bless you and keep you!

I risk being a two-faced judgmental person (or just mental!) by advancing what I did. I'm aware of that. But I do it in good faith, and with the hope that y'all might consider that it represents what others may think as they "lurk," but perhaps are not willing to jump and and be odd-man-out. Maybe, too, a non-poster will have something else to think about than all this other (sigh!) stuff... it's about possibilities, and yes, about discussion. My email address is available to anyone who views my profile. If anyone wants to have a non-public conversation, I would welcome that. I'm also "here" to discuss the issues in this forum, at least for a while. ("sickness of heart" rung a bell with me!) fine with me, Ex10, like I said, you gotta do what you gotta do Heck, how do you spell judgemental? Judgmental? That can't be right.

No, ex10, I would not. And anyone who is a friend of Roy's is a friend of mine. It's been a while, though, and after all this time, my point is that it doesn't make sense on one level, and that's what my post was about.

Thanks, Dooj Take your time. These issues have to do with EACH of us, individually. You're a thoughtful person, and I agree, we have indeed been given the charge to know men by their fruits. Ex10, if I were in a shootin' match with many people here, I couldn't match their knowing of him "personally." I didn't enter residence until after he died. I was WOW four times and held various responsibilities, including local music ministry, and he sought me out on a number of occasions (is that spelled correctly?) and we talked one-on-one. I also helped Howard Allen take care of him on a visit to California. I saw a dark side of him a number of times, in large groups and small. But now i see: You may have been typing while I was posting, or you're just ignoring me (which is fine!) but your post is a mild illustration of what I'm talking about. "But Now I Speculate" "But Now I Pass On Rumors"

Linda is beginning to make a good point. Hope her computer doesn't get zapped! Praying for you, dear! Abigail. Malachi 1:1ff is one place to start.

I guess I'll be the first and possibly only post-er to sympathetically regard Dr. Wierwille. Regardless of all the evidence that has been leveled against him here and otherwise, I can't convict him of sexual immorality. I can't say that I've read it all. Some of it seems credible. And obviously, some who are posting here claim first-hand knowledge. I suspect that both VPW and OJ Simpson are guilty, but I don't know that. What I do know is the each of us will stand before God in the person of Jesus Christ, and make an account for the things that are done in our bodies. Obviously, many view themselves as protectors of the innocent, exposers of evil, etc. That may be or not be true. There may be other motivations of which even the person representing them is unaware. You are quick to suppose this is true with VPW! (Or even the more blatant, that he wasn't decieved, but knew all along his evil plan!) My own heart felt certain that he was fallible, prideful, and very foolish at times. I witnessed an incident with him and Mrs. Wierwille that I felt was "telling" of his character, and it made me wince. (It was similar to something already posted. Probably not the same.) I loved the man in spite of the faults I saw in him. After he died and all these allegations came out, I felt even more wounded that he might have done some of these things. Certainly, it would be a betrayal to what he preached. But (and this is more "evidence" against him) he didn't really preach sexual purity, or "holiness" in general. Later in life, I've made corrections to that aspect of my understanding of the will of God. (More properly, it was the teaching of others that helped me to that conviction, and the spirit itself, which I guess is saying the same thing.) You're all right, and entitled, to examine the fruit of someone's life in light of the truth. You're right to comfort the wounded and to pray for them, to assist them in any authentic way to get healed of their wounds. You're right to condemn manipulation, sexual immorality, and pride. He is going to need some serious forgiveness, regardless. So am I, and so are you. I've struggled to re-order my understanding of the scriptures in light of all that's gone on, and the accusations are just a part of that. Evaluating the doctrine, which many of you have done as well, is also very important and constructive. But I feel I need to love you all in spite of some of the faults I see in you as well! It's not just distasteful, but quite contrary to the scriptures to backbite, slander, and tell tales. You may reply that verity is a defence against the charge of slander. Is it? Are these "idle words" acceptable to God? "May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Thy sight." The kind of forgiveness Jesus taught was one of what I call "the impossible commands." It's not impossible, of course, to forgive one's enemies, to love those who hate us, who despitefully use us -- to love our enemies. Jesus did it, and as we all know, "he that believeth on me, the works that I do..." "Father, forgive them...." Impossible, in a sense, but all things are possible with God. As many fine Christian preachers have taught, there is a marvelous side-effect of forgiveness. It seems to set the offended one free. <insert great quote, even if it's only from memory, and may not be exact> unforgiveness is the poison we take, trying to kill another Really, you gotta do what you gotta do. Obviously, it would be callous not to recognize that there are those here who are dealing with a lot of pain. Along with that, though, there is a definite (IMO) smug-fest that just doesn't seem right to me. I have a TON of good fruit in my life as a result of my involvement with the man. That fruit abides today in my children, as well, and I believe it will abide in their children. I've had to recant attitudes and beliefs to my kids. I've had to tell them that I was sorry it took me so long to grow up in some categories. In some ways I really failed them miserably, and if God takes me to task about my sins, he will have plenty from which to choose. But this ongoing process of sanctification, of cleansing and being cleansed, of pursuing holiness, is the will of God. And it is a process. It does NOT come in "spiritual celophane" BOOM! when you get "born again." Jesus said a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, etc. I see both in the life of VPW, and in my own. I don't know what to do with that. It was unwise not to cite his sources for his "stolen" material, but we're all standing on the shoulders of those who went before us. Many times, he gave credit (I heard him!) to BG Leonard, Rufus Mosely, etc. But the wholesale paraphrasing was literally a violation of copyright laws, as Dr.J has so painstakingly presented. There a people out there who have gotten over it, they have thrown out the bathwater and kept the baby. Some, like you and me, are still working on that. You go on and do what you've gotta do. I don't like it, I don't think it's helping as much as you might think, and yet I have to leave you for the Lord to judge, just as I do with VPW. He is the one that knows the thoughts and intents of the hearts. He'll lay open the motivations of mortal men. He judges righteously. I do NOT accept the judgements pronounced upon him so often in these threads. I do not think it is godly or healthy to do so. (If we're going to be doing what the scriptures say, how about trying this on for size: "judge not, lest ye be judged.")

For the chocolate, or the words?

Shifra, thank you for the vote of confidence. If I "get past Jesus" I will be satisfied. Wrd, thanks for exWaying in. I agree that the set of questions is limited, and at first I regreted not having taken more time with them, but it has been a good springboard, and it does actually say a lot about those who answer them. The results have been delightful from the standpoint of honesty and courtesy, so much so that I must thank you all from the bottom of my heart. I haven't checked, but I think you're the first who disagreed with the statement "God doesn't hate." As I read your list, I also thought of "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." A very good list I must say, which I'm sure you know could be expanded considerably. There is also the issue of whether a believer should hate evil. As the psalmist said, "I hate them with perfect hatred." Touchy question, particularly since Jesus said to love those who hate us, to love our enemies. But should we "hate" evil, and every wicked way? In one sense, I would say we should. What do you others think? For one who chafed a little at the limits of the questions to reveal your theology, I was surprised at your short answer on the "born again" narrative question! But of course, your answer reflects the simplicity (I mean that in a good sense) of your thoughts on the matter. I really enjoyed reading your survey, and deeply respect your answers. The prayer question I think is a good one. Not a trick question, but an important one. I'm definitely in the U category, and am still hoping for some sparkling replies to that one. Anyone want to take another run at it? (How 'bout you, Larry?) The Job question can reflect our views in regard to "the integrity of the Word." I hate (!) to be lukewarm or anything, but I'd have to put myself in the U category here, too. I can see it more liberally than before (less "literally," which is really a strange term anyway if you think about it, but you know what I mean). If both the creation account and Job were allegorical, it wouldn't touch my faith or trust in God a bit. But I can also simply take it as it is, without worrying about it a bit. The multiple author theory that Abigail first pointed out is very insightful, and I have no doubt that this theory is held in high regard by wonderful scholar/believers. "The jury's still out." The question "is doctrine important" has come up in varying ways already. "Four crucified," is not a major doctrinal position (and one of only two marked U by Wrds). "Is Jesus your lord" obviously a little more critical! But it's been pointed out on these boards many times that we in TWM were doctrine-worshipers, and I have some sympathy for that view, only I direct it inwardly, generally, since I prefer to point only ONE finger at myself! (he he) On a personal level, I think doctrine is VERY important, but compelling others to believe likewise, or being prideful of my "knowledge of the truth" can become a real pitfall... witness Paul's address to the Jews in Romans 2, and Jesus' polemic against the Pharisees all over the place! (Matthew 15:1ff). On the other hand, in an authentically operating portion of the Church, it is quite necessary to contend for the faith that has been once delivered to us. Certainly, there are many people who are more sure of their theological positions than I am. But I do have powerful convictions in my heart that have come out of my study and practice (best I can) of the biblical writings, along with the spirit of God. Enough already! Who is next, I wonder?

Waysider, your "simplified" version is good. Thanks for sharing that; you're good at that. Of course that's what it means. It's only in the context of my experience with the Way that the baby was Christ and truth, and the bathwater religion.

Good post, waysider. Something to think about

Some folks we're still in touch with (though not always regularly) are Steve and Teresa Ladieu, Dan and Jenelda Puzzo, Lonnell Johnson, Bob and Kathy (Lochner) Mathieson, Doug and Carole Seed, Tom Mangione, Jeffrey Moore, Steve and Valerie Squibb, Terry and Sandi Sweigart, Ron and Denise Anderson (Who live right up the street!) ... I may edit this to add others. Would especially like to hear from Greg and Meg Payeur, Nate and Nancy Pillsbury, Galen and Mary Hollenbeck, Steve and Carla Lyon, all from our Corps. Also Leslie (Olson), Dave Schebelle, Sharon Martin, Mary (Herbst) Winter(s?), Marley, Tanya, Deb (Dinsmoor), Deb Schneider, Barry and Kathy Hobby, and 1974 WOWs at Little Rock Arkansas.

Funny, we use a catchphrase and we sometimes assume others are using it the same way we are. To me, "the baby" is the Lord Jesus, or the truth (same thing). The bathwater is religious pride, the shortcomings and foolishness of men, and bad doctrine.

Hi. Starting a thread for Family 13/14/15, including minicorps. Dan and Liz Haas Liz and I live in northern DE Rachel is married with 2 children! Lives in DE Sarah was married Oct 07 Lauren works at the White House as a pastry chef. Lives in DC View my profile for link to more pictures ("my website") Would enjoy touching base with any and all. If you're not comfortable with public forum, feel free to email me (click my picture, on left, for address). If you post, maybe you could put your name / corps number in the title of the first post. Then: now: That's Emily Adelman, Lauren's roomate in DC Lauren is missing. Couple in middle is Tim's parents. We're blessed! Rachel with Tim, and son Eden... Violet is now born and beautiful Sarah with Javy Lauren