anotherDan

Wrds, can one type in tongues? Special survey question just for you! :P Many kind words... I appreciate them. Hope the thread keeps going (that others continue to "exWay-in" on the questions) and I will check in from time to time. I've been somewhat house-bound for the past week or so, and that afforded me a lot more time to "devote" to internet stuff. I'm getting better now, and I'll have to do some serious hours to catch up at work, so that's a factor too in my deciding to curtail involvement. My email is danhspot-signup"AT"yahoo"DOT"com, which I check fairly often. (there is a hyphen in there) I'd be interested in hearing any elucidations on any of the topics covered in the survey, as well. I had hoped to post my thoughts more thoroughly on some of the topics, but I never did get that done. Jesus said more about the Sabbath than about any of the other of the 10 commandments, with the exception, perhaps, of fornication/adultery. I think a sensible experimental practice of sabbathkeeping might be in order. Liz and I did that for some time, and I wish we were still doing it now! Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Sabbath was made for man, and Jesus Christ himself IS our rest, our shabbat. Some of these things were brought up by other posters. Lots more to explore. Many things God has yet to teach us. Kisses and hugs and chocolate all around!

Now my head? (pat pat) OK. "You annoint my head with oil..." :wub:

Eyesopen, interesting link. Thanks, sis.

assuming it's a four liter, you're probably going to get less than 20 MPG. But it's a very cool car.

T-Bone I experienced it or perceived it somewhat differently. Working in the kitchen, the dishwashing room, the grounds, did not feel demeaning to me. I learned profound lessons that remain with me to this day. On another point you made, the dignity of the individual (what some called "the priesthood of all believers," though we did not) was likewise promoted. Ideas like "the life is in the twig" and indeed, the teaching that it is Christ in you were aimed at attempting to restore things that are godly in the Christian paradigm. That being said, and since I've come to know you somewhat through your posts, I know you won't let me get away with leaving it at that, and you would be right. Though the Way espoused good ideas, they didn't carry them out very well, at times. Honest biblical research is a biggie. Respect for the individual was another one, as was the work program, I would suppose. But a very big one you touched on is huge: the so-called Great Mystery. "Our" exclusivism was never even scantily veiled. Sometimes I try to be kind to the memory of VPW, who taught me a lot of things that I still appreciate, I rationalize that he was living in a time when some things simply would not be heard without exaggerating them. But I've given up that rationalization. From the earliest days, even before my involvement starting in 1973, there is a palpable pride in "we know it, and nobody else does," a tradition that is still one of the hallmarks of TWI-2. The teaching of "the Great Mystery" itself is badly misguided, having been one of the Bullinger/dispensationalist ideas that Dr. Wierwille adopted. What Paul really meant in Eph 3 is totally missed in that teaching, as you indicated. (or did you?) Your condemnation of hypocrisy is commendable. And your view regarding the Church, both "visible" and "invisible" (good theological terms) is likewise appreciated.

Hello, my name is Dan... ( : :wacko: :wacko: HELLO, Dan. :unsure: :wacko: :( :wub: ^_^ :mellow: ) And I'm an intolerant-intolerant-intolerant. I have a partially redeeming quality of having the "rant" part somewhat under control, though I may be in denial.

I'm a fan... just purchased my third, a 2000, with 180k on it. It all depends, as always with every used car, how well it was serviced. Cherokees can take a LOT of neglect, and still keep running. Check that it shifts well into and out of 4WD, and investigate as you would any used car. The price is also a factor. My guess is that a 94 in good condition mechanically and cosmetically with that many miles on it is worth between 1400 and 2200, the range being just how good you feel about it mechanically and cosmetically, how much tread is on the tires, etc. A cracked window or torn driver's seat drives it lower, all service records that impress you would drive it up. I base my opinion on my own searches, which have been local to northern DE/southeastern PA, through craigslist, local papers, etc. Best wishes with it. Dan <---- knows a number of WOMEN who might be able to give equally sage advice, if not better!

Letatelia garund a maysa telia geenseen.

Thanks, cman. And I think you're right about the honesty thing. One of the most valuable services that can be rendered sometimes is to encourage people to express what they are feeling, without condemning/judging them. How else can we be said to truly love one another?

cman, true, they are people. I appreciate that sentiment. And some of them are profoundly hurt, and I can appreciate that too. I was just trying to describe how the "ex" element of any paradigm is negative space, and I mean that in a new way than the way I used to think. "Reaching forth" to the things which are before me is something I'm trying to do. I recognize that lots of other folks are doing the same in their own ways. I didn't mean to sound critical, though again, the term "critical" can be used in a positive sense. This is a valuable forum. If I had the time and energy, I might try to start a better one, but upon reflection I don't think I really could. As you suggested, this place is populated by "people" (duh! but again, I'm responding to you, and surely you were stating the obvious, as well) Just as many have noted here, local congregations all have various compromises, various doctrinal and practical elements that make "sharing fully" difficult. And sometimes it is not clear to me where the line must be drawn between forbearance and commitment to the truth as I see it. Something that may be seen in these congregations as well as at the GSC is a jostling of this line. The NT is replete with examples of the kind of forbearance that both Jesus and Paul taught, and which is all-too-rarely practiced among rabid Christian fundamentalists.... just like the Pharisees of the 1st century. On the other hand, there is also a "toleration" that flies in the face of authentic living -- what might be called "kingdom living." There are those who reject such a paradigm, and I have no problem with that, but the fruit of that root seems pretty obvious at times, at least to me. The irony of an intolerance of intolerance makes some to resort citing the absurd example. Shall we tolerate child molesters? The usual reply runs that as long as there is no victim, everything is OK. Shall we protect drug abusers from themselves? Some would say "no". I give a d-amn, but sometimes I don't know how to do "the thing which is good." The seed we sow is of utmost importance, but sometimes equally important is choice of the ground into which we sow it.

F.F. Bruce, Brue M. Metzger, N.T. Wright, William Barclay, Dallas Willard, Dietrich Bonheoffer, Charles Spurgeon are among my favorites, pretty much in that order. Most are gone, now, but their writings remain. If you want to read Willard, I recommend starting with The Divine Conspiracy. Can't stand Spong or his buddy Peter Gomes, though I've read them (actually, because I've read them.) Spong's Why Christianity Must Change or Die begs the retort "Why John Spong must change or die"! Joyce Meyers is OK in my book, as are Beth Moore, Billy Graham, and many others. BTW, Def (the original poster) is no longer posting here. At least, he announced he was bowing out. He was special. edited to add Willard

Deb, thanks for exWay-ing in on the survey, and for your comments addressed to me. You bless me, too. You always have. I'm pretty sure I know who you are, based on your comments. Favorite memory of mine.... you laid hands on me and prayed for me after I'd taken a very bad dive off a cliff into a quarry... I had quite a concussion, and as you prayed, my mind came into great clarity. Many other fond memories, as well. Favorite answers to the survey questions included your narrative anwser on the Sabbath question and this one: There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. T/F/U True...but where are they? N. T. Wright, maybe. Intellectual pursuit of study, reading, and considering various believers' works (and unbelievers!) through the centuries has given me a more balanced perspective. I do have a strong orientation in that direction, sometimes to my injury, but it is a part of loving God with all one's heart, soul, MIND, and strength. God is marvelous, even terrifying, to me. I'm willing to become as a little child, to start over, if He'll give me the grace to see. My time here at GSC may be coming to a close; I've done some "processing," and it's been fairly hard on me. Overall, I don't really like it here, but that's to be expected in any "ex" type of site. I don't really consider myself exWay in the most basic sense, considering that Jesus Christ said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I'm trying to be exFoolishness, exSuckered (but not exSuccoured!) and exPrideful. There are a lot of thoughtful, wonderful people posting here, and I have gained at least one real friend here. But I'm weary of much of the hardness and debate. My email is listed in my profile, so I figure if some future browsers come across my posts, they can find me. Drop me a line if you wish. I have been wondering if the golfing thing worked out for M_____. Love you!

George, maybe the book converted you? (or unconverted you?) I thought about unconverting when I read it! (At least I thought it might unconvert some of *my friends*, anyway!) Great story, Waysider. I've noticed I've almost derailed the thread I started, my own self. Thanks for putting it back on track. "All who wander are not lost" indeed.

PLEASE let this thread die!

Liz and I got married during that ROA. Family and friends flew in, and we escorted them from the Fairgrounds to the Way woods for a private little ceremony. 30 years ago, Sunday. While our friend Leslie Olson sang a song during the ceremony, a little bird came down and perched on a fencepost right next to her, and sang along. I never even heard about Elvis until after the honeymoon.

I liked that quote, George. Reminded me of a "drum circle" I saw once. It sure seemed spiritual to me. Drumolalea? (Please, let us not get into "kissing in tongues" ) A profound treatment of all kinds of spiritual behavior/ experience may be found in William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience. Would make interesting reading for many who hang out here in the basement. The subtitle is revealing: A Study in Human Nature. Very popular book, and available cheap at nearly any good used book store. James' philosophy (called "Pragmatism") is what one might call an enriched agnosticism. His dispassionate review of pneumatikos is brutal (which, again, I would surmise would be very appealing to some of our local posters!) and yet his philosophy, based on these observations, is more than logical, it's almost pleasant. Wright, whose personal practice of tongues endears me even further to him, has been a spiritual voice of reason and good taste. He doesn't just teach how the Word has authority; like the KJV translators, he feels that his voice is a PART of that Word, a part of God Himself, speaking to His creation, announcing the good news of the grace of God, and proclaiming the things of His kingdom. And it's not just his (Wright's) own voice that does this, but the voice of every one in whom the spirit of God is, who are led by God, who are the children of God. Each of them speaks that Word, both in what they say, and in what they do. Each of them is in partnership, in union, with God, and that may actually be what the New Testament writers were talking about all along.

He doesn't sound truly free to me. nandon, you're still formulating your moral center, just as we all are one one level or another. We begin with a foundation, and refine it as we go along. I agree that escaping a cult is a major "freeing" moment, but I'd hardly call your situation "truly free." You're putting yourself out there because you're unsure, and in my mind, you should be unsure. Never heard the phrase "trading the witch for the devil" but it's a clever one. We also trade one form of bondage for another. "Liberty" is not license. You used the very good word "intimacy" to mean sexual intimacy, but in my view, a lasting monogamous relationship has to be built on intimacy in the broader range of our beings. The song says "breaking up is hard to do," which is true, but even harder than breaking up is growing up. As another person wrote, there is plenty of time, and yet, the longer we delay growing up, the more heartache we will suffer, and the more we'll spread it around. As one who is painfully aware at 54 that growing up is a lifelong process, I wish you well in your search for authenticity and wholeness.

You'll probably find 5 or 6 of his more popular books at B&N or Borders. There are a lot of Wright resources online (like WRDs' article) and some NT Wright discussion groups. I would start with Simply Christian for a good overall view. Our local fellowship took a break from studying the Gospels for a month to do a Wright symposium based around a post of one of the Wright discussion groups. We did this for four meetings. Note the quote below is NOT from Wright, but what one poster thought were "the Wright basics." Each of us took one or two of the points, and answered the following questions, and then we discussed. 1. Is this really Wright's position? 2. Is it correct?

And to think, you used to do it to speak the wonderful works of God!

Maybe that's what the "tongues ringtones" are about. I did finally click it. Top of the window "featuring tongues ringtones." But I never did find any. I guess you have to pay the 9.95 for the full index.

WRDS, dear: Thanks for the link. He probably didn't have to prepare too much for this speech, since he'd written a book called The Last Word, subtitle Beyond the Bible Wars to a New Understanding of the Authority of Scripture. It's one of his shorter books, aimed at a more general audience. I highly recommend it to anyone who is willing to (from the one side) take another look at the Bible, and (on the other) consider a less "literal" Way-brained way to look at it. Another thoughtful book is How To Read the Bible for All Its Worth (no apostrophe on "Its" -- what a difference a little mark can make! but we knew that.) By Fee and Stuart. I've given out about 20 copies, I'd guess, to friends. After enjoying Wright for quite a while, I was pretty blown away by his position on tongues... he's refreshingly surprising, and smarter than the smartest atheists/agnostics I've come across, and WAY smarter than John Spong. From the article Wrds noted: Shifra, dear! Like you, I don't "practice" it in a need-to-do kind of way, but sometimes reflexively. Wright's take on it is interesting, though, isn't it? He's just sharing, not teaching... I don't think there's any doctrinal written "teaching" he's given on it. Like you, I find it difficult to reconcile much of what (as to SIT) was taught by VPW with the scriptures. Roy, as usual, you are thinking outside of the box. You have a ministry, brother! Thank you, and a holy kiss blowing your way from Delaware! Our wonderful context-sensitive Google ads include one for "tongues ringtones"... "Get tongues Ringtones Now. All Carriers Supported!" and yet, somehow, I've resisted the urge to click on it!

Thanks for sharing the link, Seth. I watched it twice. Now you're a GreaseSpotter times two, and still not a grease-spot-spot-by-midnight. I wish you well! sounded like George Carlin.... "but He LOVES you!"

got it

me too. Did you read some of the comments people left?

Wrds, I'd be careful there. He might have something there, when he says, You might need a toke or two to get it, but it's really profound!