anotherDan

I have some time to respond now to something else you wrote, T: I can hear the scripture citations in the above. You answered the question very well. My purpose, however, was to alleviate my own befuddlement, and you've only put me deeper in it! :wacko: JK Your use of "fitted" reminded me of another context... It might be 2Tim2... where one vessel is fitted to a certain honorable service, while another to one of less honor. Your ideas are terrifying, TBone... especially "to... experience punishment commensurate with their evil works." But I will not be afraid. God has not appointed me unto wrath, but to salvation. That said, I will fear if I neglect so great a salvation, and turn again to count the blood of Christ as a common thing, and do despite to the spirit of grace. My unbelieving friends or family... will God not save them? That's a part of my question, and part of why I have to answer, like you, "Unsure." I don't get where you advance that "the soul is meant to have a body," but all in all, your post has given me pause to think again about some of these eternal matters. Question: The "eternal state" of which you spoke: does it include Today?

Thanks TBone! boy, that's a beauty, ain't it? In the opening post, I did put a link to that thread, intending this to be a continuation of it, and I recommended reading it. Lots of good discussion there, and as I re-read your post, I realize how much of an impact your words had on me. But again, there were a lot of good points-of-view. I think Oldiesman was in top form there, and I hope he'll join us in the continuing conversation. There were many good posts by lots of different people. Despite the title of the thread, I want also to go further and explore the broader questions of walking by the spirit and simply "living" as God reveals we can and should live as believers. Healing and knowledge and wisdom and worship and giving of thanks are all a part of that. The Way's emphasis on S.I.T. and it's spin on it, as you pointed out, obscures something much more marvelous and living... something (as you said) that GOD does. And your post touches on many of those issues. Great stuff, T. edit: Abigail, we're posting at the same time (I sometimes take a LONG time to compose!) You're right about love... chapter 13. And I think it was taught "back then," in fact I know it was, but as you and T said, it wasn't really praticed very well. There is still hope for us to grow into that, I think, especially if we have the humility to that which God is doing in the other "members." I believe that an important collateral issue to all this is the honor we are told we should give to others in the body who differ from ourselves in how they serve. Remember "every joint supplieth?" Jesus Christ the head, and we as members of his body, all working effectually for the edification of the church in love. So what say ye, other people? edited to say, "boy, that's a beauty, ain't it?"

I see. Thanks, Dot. Things are not always as they appear. I'm glad you're staying connected, and I feel that God is watching over you. Nothing is more clear to me than that you are precious and beloved to God and to me.

I started this thread with a quote from one the foremost living theologians in the world, who "prays in tongues." Do I think it's OK that "rainbowgirl" speaks in tongues? Absolutely. But the rhetorical questions at the end of 1 Cor. 12 have gotten me thinking about the position the Way took on "the manifestations of holy spirit." I have nearly every English translation of the New Testament in existence, and I don't think any one of them implies that "each one [of the manifestations of the spirit] worketh that one and the selfsame spirit, dividing to every man serverally as he [the man] wills." Is virtually the whole theological world wrong, and VP Wierwille right about this? I don't think so. (Oldiesman, jump in any time. I love you, man.) The Way taught that all nine "manifestations" were available to all "born again believers." 1Cor 12,13 and 14 are interpreted in this "light." But it doesn't appear to me to be AT ALL what Paul is saying. Quite the contrary. It's particularly irksome to me, now, to hear someone cite "I would that ye all speak in tongues" as a mandate from Paul that we all SHOULD do it, with the implication that we all can do it. And if anyone considers himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. Once Paul begins with "now concerning spiritual things..." he writes two of the most beautiful and practical chapters in the whole Pauline corpus. Chapter 14 is a little more difficult for me, interpretation-wise, but 12 and 13 are clear as a bell. Paul's "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesy" is remarkably akin to when Moses said something along the lines of "I would to God that all of God's people were prophets, and had His spirit upon them!" (A wish that was fulfilled, God's way, through Jesus Christ). Paul is saying "I wish..." He then goes on to say "but rather [i.e. "more", and might even be better translated "moreso"] that you would prophesy.... that the church may receive edifying." The whole point of chapter 12 is that we are different members of the same body. God has placed the members in the body as it has pleased Him. The whole body would be pretty pathetic if it was just an eye. It might see really well, but how would it get around? If something gets in my eye, I'm thankful I have a hand to rub it out. Romans 12 says, "we then having gifts differing according to the grace give to us..." then goes on to list things like prophecy, administration, teaching, etc. Here's how verses 6-14a read in the NRSV: the formatting is my own, and without authority! You won't get any argument from me if you insist that each of us can exhort another, but you know what? Out of respect to the text we just read, I think it is fair to say that through the grace given to someone, the spirit "worketh" that exhortation "for profit withal" (as in 1Cor12:7) dividing to each his own as the spirit wills. This is akin, in the matter of tongues, in that it is indeed the man speaking, but it is the spirit that gives the utterance. When we get together, are all giving? No, they are not. Do all speak with tongues? No. Are all prophets? No. Not that we couldn't be any of these things, but again, out of respect for Paul's writings, we ought to say that if we don't all do all these, it is because the spirit is not "working" these various things in us at the moment. But what is needed, what is profitable, will be brought forth in God's children, as He "divides" to each of us.... "according to the grace given unto us." Just yesterday, I was witness to a selfless act of giving. This was as much a "manifestation of the spirit" as any prophecy I have ever heard. The spirit "worked" this in the heart of this beautiful believer, and she did the deed. I should mention that "as a man wills" is not unimportant. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. If we are unwilling to be inspired, then it will not happen. I admit the upshot of all this is potentially disturbing. Someone might say, "What the heck, then, have we been doing when we speak in tongues?" That thought surely disturbed me! But if I'm going to read the Bible for what it says, really endeavoring not to overlay it with what I might wish it says, this is where my current understanding lies. The technique of "leading into" tongues is totally extra-biblical, as are "excellor's sessions," practicing making the sounds differ, etc. Such practices are literally uninspired. Try reading 1 Corinthians 12 in ANY English translation, or, if you're capable, in the Greek. Follow Paul's train of thought. Speaking from experience, once you see it, you'll never go back. It's that clear. All that being said, Bishop Wright's quote moves me deeply, and though I've not settled all these "spiritual matters" into a cohesive theology, I am comfortable "praying in the spirit" = "praying in tongues" as the spirit gives utterance, as the spirit "divides" to me the "working" whereby I can pray in the spirit, where I can pray for things about which I do not even know, but the spirit does. It is my spirit praying (1Co14). And it somehow edifies me if I'm inspired to do it while in the congregation, silently, (words cannot utter some of these things: Romans8) and I speak "divine mysteries." If I do so, "verily" I give thanks well... in a manner that is pleasing to God. Another is not edified unless I'm inspired to prophesy or teach in words they can understand, which is why I would prefer to be inspired in those categories when I'm with others. After all, I can "pray in the spirit" when I'm all alone. But when I'm with the church, it is better to connect with them. Otherwise, they either will not understand the words I speak, unless they are interpreted, or they will think I'm crazy, which would be true, because I would be speaking out loud, but not to them. I'd be speaking to God, and yet they could not even say "amen" to my giving of thanks, because to them I'd be like some alien... maybe even speaking a language of angels! How would that be loving to them? Some of my friends still hold firm to the old Way interpretation. I marvel, now, that I could have thought virtually the whole theological world was wrong about this, and that Dr. Wierwille was right. This raises questions I have not yet sufficiently tackled, particularly as to the nature of tongues with interpretation in the Church, and prophecy. "Word of knowledge" and the rest of the list in 12:7ff all need to be reconsidered. I'm rethinking what all these things should mean in the living Church today--how in practice God would have me to conduct myself. One thing I do know, I will no longer make Paul's "wish" a command. I will, however, heed what Paul does command: quench not the spirit, and forbid not to speak with tongues. I've been longwinded enough. Can't right now respond to the cessationists. I welcome your input.

Dot, your search touches my heart, and recent posts by you have allowed me to understand you much better, and certainly this morning when I've decided not to go to a church or fellowship, I will take a little time to pray for your situation, and beseech God to bless you and give you wisdom, strength and healing. The other thread about slain in the spirit was very very interesting to me... the various viewpoints and all, including yours. Like you, I want the "real deal," and I believe that the spiritual can look pretty silly to the "natural man." Like Paul calling himself a fool for Christ. The preaching of the cross was to some, foolishness. I've hit rock bottom hard enough to be willing to "chuck it all" and start all over, several times. Actually I could say that I'm there right now (long story... not worth the typing). We are sometimes all too willing to deny the spiritual, using logic.... "science" is more reliable than spirit. Paul spoke about "every high thing" that exalts itself over the knowledge of God. Science is thought to have debunked what more primitive cultures deemed to be demonic forces.... "they" say that it was just terminology to explain forces that defied comprehension at the time... so we have theads here at GSC about whether or not epilepsy, for example, or cancer are spiritual. Modern medicine is having to deal with all kinds of immune diseases like lupis and we have all kinds of new "scientific" explanations for things like ADD... we're prescribing drugs that manipulate seratonin (sp?) levels in the body. I'm a big believer in medicine and science. I'm also a big believer in the stripes of Jesus. The array of points-of-view represented on this forum is "deep as a river, high as a mountain"! It has helped me to shed a lot of foolishness, both on the natural side, and on the spiritual. It's all really one, of course. We are both spiritual and physical. I would like to give you a cut-and-dry anwser from my heart, but it's not in there. I can only tell you where at this point in my journey my heart is settled, and where it questions. First of all, I'm leery of barking, "holy laughter," "slain in the spirit," and prophecies of all kinds (I did read that one you posted "for those who believe in prophesy," by the way... not making a judgement on that, specifically... other than to say I am leery). I'm unconvinced by arguements posted that being slain in the spirit and some of this other stuff is "scriptural." On the other hand, those who are freer thinkers than I have posted some worthy thoughts about re-thinking the meanings of some of these terms in the Bible, and interpreting various practices and beliefs. InvisibleDan and SirGuessalot made some great points. George Aar has a valid point of view (hi, George!). But ultimately, we need somehow to arrive at an authentic response to what is happening around us. We have to accept the limitations of both science and theology to really explain what happened at Columbine and 9/11, and why depression is so prevalent in our society. It's going to take an act of God to make this happen. Man's not going to evolve sufficiently to master it without the Master. He may make some progress, but he'll get rocked the next time around because he'll be so full of himself for being so smart! The bottom line is that we have real lives, with real families and dogs and jobs, we have real bodies that suffer various afflictions, real yearnings that remain unfulfilled at times. Both religion and science have their answers, sometimes to the exclusion of the other, and once in a while, they are compatible. Faulty faith is trumped by actual wisdom, but faulty wisdom is trumped by true faith (that is, faith in that which is actually true.) Does God see, and provide? Does He heal? I believe He does. Does He work in the "ministries" of alcholics and perverts? I seriously doubt it. I'm with George on this one. Again, I wish I could just give you an answer that would resolve your conflict and make everything all better. Best I can do is what I've posted here, and to pray for you. A verse that comes to heart is to be wise as a serpent, but harmless as a dove. Don't let psuedo-spiritual practicioners suck you into their void. But don't stop seeking God because of the right-brainers, either. God may not be what the smartest theologians say He is, but He is who He is! And there is a sanity that transcends logic... it's called peace, and joy, and righteousness, and "the holy spirit." While I pray for you (and the "original dooj") and while I thank God for pond's new job this morning, I pray that there really is power in this earthen vessel, what Roy and one of the Gospel writers calls "virtue." Love never fails! My confession of faith. Your deliverance is coming

stirring the pot: At the end of 1 Corinthians 12, Paul sets forth a series of rhetorical questions... are all apostles? are all prophets? .... do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? This literary device is so common and so effective that people use it today, often without giving it a second thought. Paul's questions are all expecting the obvious answer, "no." No, all do not speak in tongues. How do you all feel this should be understood?

your turn, suda!

People are talkin' talkin' 'bout people I hear them whisper you won't believe it They say we're lovers....

I get that... very good!

Wrds, Anthony has visited us a couple of times here in the DE area, and every time he came it was a great blessing. His background is WWCOG (Armstrong) and when he came out of that, there were a lot of similarities with exWay people. I've not read all his books, "Our Fathers Who Aren't in Heaven" I think is about the Kingdom (not ADAN). The inheritance is not "in heaven." Anthony did two memorable things for me and others when he was here. He raised our appreciation of the Gospels and the teachings of Jesus. He confrontationally spoke to us about water baptism. I used to correspond with him by email. He's very unassuming and approachable, is tender hearted but grounded, doctrinally, and not at all a pushover. He's a staunch believer that Jesus is not God, and has particpated in public debates about this, and with Muslims. He's charming and funny. I admire him and thank God for the influence he's had on my life. That's not to say that there wouldn't be some lively conversation if I could get him over here for dinner tonight. If I could arrange it, I'd want you and TBone to come! Salvation? God transcends time. He sees history, the present, and the future. He doesn't "predict" future events. He sees them as clearly as He sees this moment, and the moment He created man in His image. I believe we do have free will, and are responsible for our actions. I also believe in grace, which to me is truly amazing (grace, that is-- not amazing that I believe it). These meet, as we've agreed, in Jesus Christ, the central Figure of all history. He uniquely represented God to the world, and is the heir of all the universe. In him, so are we. (I'll have to do an "in him" question in SpotSurvey3) My soteriology, such as it is, goes like this. Repent of your sins. Ask forgiveness of God, and it wouldn't hurt to ask forgiveness of others, and repay those you have wronged. Be willing to start from scratch (be born again) and "allow" God (I use such a term with extreme reservation) to put the pieces of your heart back together again, His way. As someone said, "He will need ALL the pieces." The central point is the one I tried to make, above. Look unto Jesus. Seek him. Dwell in him. Abide in him. Remain in him. There is no other meaningful way to understand "lord." The first English translations used "lord" and we've kept it ever since. It's a very British word, obviously. I would love to know how the first Ephesian believers responded to that word in the Greek language. (Any takers?) Then, it says, we HAVE eternal life... the life that is of God, and we are of God. We're united to Him "in Jesus Christ." That's why God has (past tense) raised us up together with him (when he was raised) and seated us with him. We "have" an inheritence in him. Now, we have communities just like they did in the First Century. To me, the vital question is, how are we to exist as children of God within "the community"? I am a citizen of the world, of the US, and a member of my family: Liz, and our three children, our two grandkids, two sons-in-law. And we have our families in the other direction, too. My dad is still living, two brothers, a half-sister, a half-brother, (I never consider them "half" anything... it's just a manner of speaking) two stepbrothers, etc. The GSC is a community, so are the fellowships / churches / Quaker meetinghouses we attend. Our yacht club is a community. The Body of Christ is "me" and "you" in the sense that we can choose to represent God, not necessarily by talking about Him, but simply by living IN THE WORLD in unity with God. You can call it obedience. Actually, that would be perfect. John wrote that he was writing believers so that they don't sin. Jesus did not sin, and "in him there is no sin." Now, in my mind, that is salvation. It's the grace to do that, coupled with the will to do it. That's what I believe it means to believe on the Name of the Son of God. cman, can you help me out?

I'd go for rainbowgirl, too, if she'd do it. Dooj in the kitchen would be very nice. Other top positions, or the presidency, TBone and/or Wrds. I'm serious. I might even come back! And I'd be calling Sushi and Abi and tell them we're getting the band back together. And bulwinkl... we'd have to find something for him to do. On second thought, let's just stay here and let them have the farm. What's for dinner, dooj? I'll help out.

I know that, of course. Yes, it is a trick question. Can we take it a step further. Are God's enemies your enemies? If they are, you should love them. No?

My favorite shark vid. Great quote, bump

bulwinkl, nice fudge!rainbow: "In God We Still Trust".... love that one what do y'all think about this one? Bruce Hornsby on piano

You do have to be careful, though, hon. That innocent camera might be bait with a big hook in it! And this is coming from an avid saltwater fisherman: what a waste of a magnificent animal!

a bit of a new spin on the topic, but One of the Big Things I did NOT learn in PFAL was to really "look unto Jesus" as it says in Hebrews. To be fair, one memorable coffeehouse teaching at an early ROA, I heard Ger@ld Wr3n do quite a good job of it, but the preaching of the cross was not a popular theme, and it should be. who endured the cross, despising the shame.... ... became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross... I neither want to defend nor diss the class. I only want to say that in my own personal journey, my appreciation for the Lord Jesus and his teaching has been revolutionary. The Gospels were written AFTER the Pauline corpus, and one commentator cleverly called them something like "passion narratives with extended introductions." The teachings of Christ that are contained in the Gospels are treasures beyond compare. How I now take to heart, as if he were speaking directly to me, "you call me Lord... why do you not do the things that I say?"

Big deal? LOL by Leann Rimes If it gets airtime in DE.... maybe I'm just not listening. I'm an oldiesfan just because I can't keep up and also keep up with the lawnmowing. It's gonna be a scorcher today, and my grass is approaching knee high. Maybe I can wear earphones

Belle, I haven't read the thread, and don't have time to, and don't know if I'll ever have time to. I have a few spots at GSC that I like to hang out at when I have the time. I will do it, though, if I can, since you asked. But I just posted an apology to you on the other thread, and I really mean that. Forgive me for judging you wrongly. I don't mean to be such an anti-anti. Part of it comes from my hurt, and a wish to not look at the ugly stuff. I acknowledge that. That being said, I do think that there are some very broken people who post things that they ought not. Some of this stuff I just have to put into Jesus' hands. My heart is not big enough to take it all in, and my ability to minister grace or anything within the will of God sometimes just dries up, for I'm a brokenhearted person, too.

Belle, I apologize. Waysider, fair enough.

Bump, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but you can just skip them if you don't like them. I've become pretty good at skipping. I really really like Suda's analysis. I don't always agree with her analysis, but I commend her for what she's doing. It's free to post, and I haven't heard Paw saying it's taking up too much bandwidth or anything. Did you ever see Eyes and Larry get on a roll? That can be fun, too. Or you can just skip it. Watch out, Lar! She's lurking!

I will take your word for it, Ab. I appreciate your pointing that out. I guess just slugging it out sometimes is part of the process.

Dang, TBone. Your post is amazing, as is your heart. Thank you for sharing it with us. I've got to come up with a Part 3 just to see what you will say. I loved the "perish forever" answer and the "name of Jesus" answer... all of them! But this is my favorite: Thanks for the candy!

He may not, Abi. Have it in him, that is. But you're always expecting the best of people. How do you do it?

You know I adore you, right? But sometimes you do have a rather big mouth! I'm sorry my dear, but it's true!

Belle, my goodness... haven't you read the "lady sharks" thread? Now let's do it the right way..... JK! JK! but seriously, though. I knew Bob from afar until around 1989, right in the the middle of POOP. At that time, I had some detailed and fairly long term discussions with him. He and I "worked" all the notes of various CG things together... it was a great blessing to me to get to know him. I know, he's stayed when I've left. I can't even imagine what he's been through. It would be easy for me to dismiss him, as you appear to do (maybe you know things that I don't... I admit that) but my impression was of a fine, loving man whose heart was bound up with the Word of God and a desire to see it live in people's lives, including his own. And especially, in children. I've never met RR, again, I knew her from afar. Because of things said against Bob, though, I wonder if GSC people just have a "diss" attitude. I agree with the exposure of pride and vanity and certainly when others take advantage of God's "little ones". I take that very seriously. But I always bring my saltshaker to GSC.