chockfull

Wierwille was a d0uch3b@g. Pardon my French He was a false representative of Jesus Christ. But he doesn't change the power of the real thing.

Raf, I understand from my analogy why you think I'm calling you Satanic. But really that is not my intent, any more than if I said you were playing "devil's advocate" that you literally were an attorney for Satan. I believe that you feel cheated by TWI in many ways. I do too. Questioning what TWI taught, and exposing what I agree with you probably was a whole lot of faking and deception going on in this field is healthy and I have nothing against it. But it does not compel me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And honestly for my life, if it were not for multiple distinct and unrelated independent confirmations of this, I would likely do just that. I really do believe that God does not intend for that gift to be proven scientifically, and that it truly is personal for every believer's edification and prayer life. I believe it from scriptures, and from my experience I have proven over and over privately between myself and God. Yes different Christians have different gifts. I am not 100% sorted out on the entirety of I Cor. 12-14 separating out TWI teaching from truth. There's a lot in there. I will say I never saw less of the fruit of practicing I Cor 13 the love chapter than I did in TWI, so in that respect even if their teaching was 100% accurate on the rest it doesn't matter. And I don't believe that their teaching was 100% accurate on the rest. But there is some blend in there I think is true. Maybe in years to come I will have time to delve into that in-depth, and sort that out verse by verse - truth from error - TWI expose style. I'm sure then I will garner to myself many more skeptics and haters. I can already hear it. They will say I'm another cheap offshoot of TWI. They will say to go get a DD degree. They will say a lot of other stuff. I'll really have to pray about that to see if it is something I feel God is leading me to do and share or not. And if you want to throw babies out with bathwater, and mix excrement in with your fish dish and say that it doesn't taste like fish, then convince everyone else that they are eating excrement, then it's a free country. More power to you.

Penworks, My life experiences on this topic are similar to yours. I first received and manifested praying in high school with one other outstanding young man - a Christian athlete. His life was a witness and I trusted his guidance. We prayed, he SIT, and then I did. I never have stopped. It in my experience enhances my prayer life and relationship with God. I see verses that talk about praying with my understanding and praying in the spirit as distinct and separate practices, otherwise why would both be talked about in the same sentence? That initial receiving incident - there was no complicated rote mechanical teaching like in TWI. It was simple. We prayed, we asked God for something, and we received. Some on this thread want to convince me that I was deceiving myself there, or that somehow I'm mistaken and that sharing my Christian life and experience is vaunting myself up somehow, and that my experience is against what the Bible teaches. To those all I can say is I trust God more than men. And there is a verse (I know it's in TWI's FNC, but that doesn't mean it isn't true) - that talks about if you ask God for a fish will He give you a stone. To all of my skeptics out there, sorry. But I'm not going to retroactively believe my Father gave me a stone, when in fact He gave me a fish that satisfies unending hunger.

I ess-gue we ould-cay ove-may is-they ead-thre to the octrinal-de orum-fe. It is getting a little deep for me and I have a very low threshold lately for how much I'm willing to get into doctrinal debates. I'm a little far in here.

You think honest intellectual debate requires me to provide evidence. I could debate other non faith-based topics in that fashion. IMO this is a question of my relationship with the Father, so all I can do is share. I remember you were stirred up into the proof side of things. I'm not making extraordinary claims, I am defending my personal faith against someone saying I'm deluding myself. I would do the same if an atheist challenged my belief in God, and in much the same fashion. If you don't feel that's an intellectual conversation then find another topic that's science based and we can play by the facts rules. I mean I could start another argument with you with the shoe on the other foot. You believe in God, right? Prove He exists or you're deluding yourself. There's a basis for a great intellectual debate, right? The whole topic to discuss in any kind of a logical manner is going to involve elements of faith, and HAS to get into the doctrinal area, because the only supporting evidence is going to be personal anecdote and scripture and its interpretation.

When people understood the tongues themselves without interpretation in their own language? Yes those are miraculous events. Don't happen every day. Who says I get a gift of tongues and you don't? Not me. Not the Bible from my understanding. If you want to, covet it. If not, don't. I didn't introduce the "God is a respecter of persons" line of thinking here, you did. I have just been describing what I do and defending myself in this thread against Raf's accusation that I'm deluding myself. But I guess people always want to highlight differences and compare themselves to each other like Corinthians says. Why do some Christians have amazing prayer lives? Really? Maybe they pray a lot? Maybe they care about God, talk to Him, and listen to Him? That's not how it works and don't bother telling me and it just isn't are all so absolute of statements that all have zero supporting statements or scripture or evidence. I can't really respond to that at all. So what do I say? I guess believe what you believe. And how's that working out for you? I mean I could point you to I Cor. 14 and quote where it says if one speaks in tongues another isn't edified, thus by implication you can do it and it involves individual edification. But you've already determined that tongues isn't for your private prayer life so why would I bother? Well I think the whole context of I Cor 12 - 14 kind of refutes that kind of thinking - comparing, feeling bad, feeling like God forgot you on Xmas with a toy you didn't want, daddy loves you better, etc. I'm defending myself from someone telling me I am involved in self-delusion in my prayer life between me and God and am challenged to prove differently. I stand up for myself and my beliefs and now you feel bad because you believe something different? And it's my fault? Come on, now.

Geisha, that tongues is for private prayer life is not exclusive to TWI teachings. I learned this growing up in a denomination. Interestingly enough, in that denomination one pastor took part in this kind of stuff, another one I talked to said that it died out with the apostles and the need served at Pentecost. I did get to go through that link, and to break it down piece by piece would clutter this thread up way farther than me answering 4 people at once is already. But I think in that link it brings up a lot of doctrinal issues that it would be hard to resolve here shortly, like the Trinity, what is "praying in the Spirit", what the Spirit is, etc. Haha - one more thing. If you believe tongues was only for a sign to speak in languages so people could understand the Pentecost sermon, does Google Translate, Bing Translate, or Babelfish now make that obsolete?

I don't make a claim about it being a language. With that said, what I observe personally is that it sounds like a language or more accurately different languages to me. I speak more than one language physically from my understanding, not tongues. So that is the basis of my saying so. I still don't understand how you rationalize this being different than throwing yourself from a pinnacle. In the temptation record, Jesus didn't need to prove to the devil that God would take care of him, thus excused himself from doing so. In a similar fashion, I can trust that I can pray to God via the spirit because He says so, and have no need to prove anything to you to have confidence in that. I believe it is for my personal prayer life, thus using it for a purpose God doesn't tell me it is intended for to look cool, prove something, etc. is not compelling to me, and I believe it IS in the category of tempting God. Capital letters, telling me what I should be excited about, and what other people say tongues are don't make compelling arguments for me to tempt God. I don't believe all that TWI says, especially w/r to the purpose of SIT. I do believe that on Pentecost, there was a special miracle that those speaking in tongues were understood by the crowd gathered from different areas and they heard their native languages praising God. THAT was a sign to unbelievers. That one special occasion. I have not experienced this personally, but have heard 4 or 5 accounts of people being in "believers meetings" where there was tongues and interpretation, and the tongue was in English, and the interpretation was in French. The speaker did not know English, but the person in the audience relating the experience did. Yes I am saying that Christianity, just like Euclidean geometry, has basic tenets that you have to take on faith. Logic works from there. I am not hung up on PROVING anything - if you say you faked it I have no reason to doubt that. I don't feel the need to prove anything. I feel that "praying with my understanding, and praying in the spirit" are both parts of my personal prayer life. I don't "prove" my prayer life by making outlandishly public prayer displays - I think those are fake and gaudy, and the same with tongues. I'm not faulting you for not proving your point. I think you are getting carried away about this PROOF stuff, and think you are crossing the line goading people into trying to do so and making generic blanket statements about everyone deceiving themselves. In that crossing the line, your goading people to use private prayer for public proof is similar to Jesus temptation. Not putting tongues up on YouTube. Also not putting my private parts up on YouTube. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE PRIVATE. Even in TWI's position and teaching, they teach the sign to unbelievers is that there are tongues w/ interpretation (like they call a "believers meeting"), not exposing your tongues up for everyone to listen to. In fact, there are express teachings by TWI in both the foundational and intermediate classes that it is immature to do that, and not to do that. Their scripture reference in that teaching is I Cor 14. The missing link there is that glossolalia may very reasonably be looked at as a gibberish counterfeit for tongues. No, a biased observation doesn't prove anything. Neither do the accounts of tongues in English really, although if you had a tape recording of that meeting it could be proof. The only thing moving away from that farther is to speculate on what I might have likely said.

It sounds like languages to me. And I speak more than one language.

Disagree. Not apples and oranges. Yes absolutely he is asking to prove God in proving something God has provided for His children and documented in scripture. Are there counterfeits? Yes. Do counterfeits disprove the genuine? I think not.

Every temptation had a scriptural backing. Of course God promised to protect His own, all throughout the OT. That's why the temptation had weight as opposed to being empty. I do. Often. To myself. Why? Because that's what the purpose of it is. Praise in your own private prayer life. It is not designed to put up on YouTube to convince skeptics. Why don't you take care of your own demonstrations for yourself to prove or disprove your beliefs? Hey, I wasn't calling you names. I was pointing out similar behavior in the Bible. Do you disagree it is similar? Listen, you've been making a lot of blanket statements across the board on this topic. You've been calling everyone self-delusional (or maybe leaving a little wiggle room for the possibility that it's not that way across the board). Now I'm challenging you with a statement and a concept. True honest intellectual discourse is considering and responding intelligently as opposed to reacting emotionally. So is horsehockey the best you've got here?

Can't speak for john. Why do you suppose that Jesus during his temptations did not throw himself from the pinnacle of the peak and let angels bear him up? Wouldn't that have provided irrefutable proof that he was the son of God and that he was tapped into God's power? A very core tenet of Christianity in any form is a belief in the intangible. If you could prove God scientifically, then everyone would believe. Atheists call Christians delusional. Yet I still choose to believe. Who's right? I guess it will all get sorted out when we die.

Sure - thanks. I appreciate the discourse. One area I have seen growth in personally since TWI is the ability to accept different points of view and to realize that the earth and my spiritual life are not going to explode if a person or group around me are not "lock-step likeminded". I view the discourse as healthy.

I can't see God holding that against you. And I'm not better than you because I didn't. Honestly, if my experience with it started within TWI as opposed to before I probably would have done the same thing.

You know, while I can appreciate all of the brain wave analysis talk, etymology, and technical details, for me I have a different approach and viewpoint. My prayer life is a little more child-like. I had enough of knowledge puffing up in TWI to last me a lifetime. I didn't mean to be rude or interrupt. Please carry on.

Ha - what did VP do? Lo shanta ka malakacita lo shanta. To me looking back all the stuff I heard from him he said was tongues seems to me like made up gibberish. Plus he admitted to doing that in front of a stadium in hsi account in the Way living in love.

You know while I may not agree with that w/r to this thread topic, in a broader sense this is an accurate description of how we were in TWI overall. Different groups of people within TWI (Corps, AC Grads, Class grads, etc.) would keep reminding each other of the nobler godly motives and sweep things under the rug that didn't fit into that. In that sense, absolutely. Communal self deception.

I don't agree with your premise that I am deceiving myself or others. I have prayed via the spirit / i.e. in tongues well before I ever heard of TWI. And participated in prayer meetings where there was interpretation. In a mainstream denominational Christian church. And with small groups of Christian friends dating back to high school. So while yes, I concede that many did make things up in that respect within TWI, I don't agree with your blanket statements that it is deception across the board. Like so many other things, God looks on the heart and is able to protect and save even within the bowels of Satan's plans.

Well to me and at least with some scriptural support, all the "utterance manifestations" (I do not accept that TWI term as accurate) are kind of part of my prayer life. So while "proving" that stuff may not be trying to prove or disprove God or a belief in God directly, it IS trying to prove or disprove an aspect of my personal relationship with God. Do you get my meaning?

I've been following the thread, but personally feel that at least for myself, trying to "prove" God and/or my relationship with God or aspects of it to another person is a futile endeavor. IMO "proving" God is each individual's burden to do for themselves and their own life. I do have one more contribution to the thread though. The "Great Principle" - i.e. God being restricted from communicating to anything besides "spirit". That doesn't even make it past Balaam's @$$ in the Old Testament. And I doubt it's something that Balaam's @$$ would see the logic in.

Fair enough. He had problems. My POV centers on seeing some of his programs instituted in local denominational churches and seeing the results. To be fair the timeframe of this was before the fiasco you describe above.

yeah, I know. with the logistics in my life and spending the years of my youth in twi, I'm sure some extent of that promise has to extend into when jesus comes back for us. but my God delivers today too, so life can get better while we wait.

It's not really a relationship at all if you're lying about it. If I felt in any way that was the case in my life I would cease doing it immediately and that practice would never cross my lips again. And I don't think God would have one iota of a problem with that. But at some point you have to consider the teachings and practices of others in mainstream Christianity as much as you do the teachings and practices of Wierwille. Personally, I see enough of the charlatan in VP's recounting his experience in the tongues part as I do in his gas pump snowstorm vision. But in his story I don't doubt that he went to an Oral Roberts seminar. I don't doubt that Oral led other people into those gifts. I've known a number of people blessed and edified by Oral's ministry (not saying he was without blemish or problems). I know denominational churches that embrace the gifts in their prayer meetings. Even if my viewpoint is different from yours, I do really appreciate what you are doing in this thread. Removing the leaven of VP the charlatan from our Christianity is a noble endeavor.

Raf, I'll give you my take on it. As a forewarning I don't agree with you, but I respect where you are coming from. I've experienced the "gifts of the spirit" in mainstream denominational Christianity and in TWI. For me I just consider the "praying in the spirit" thing a normal part of my prayer life. I pray with my understanding, I pray in tongues. I've heard the interpretation/prophecy thing in mainstream Christianity and in TWI. I've been edified, I've also been around where it's an ego trip. I do think TWI is puffed up about this category, and in handling it projects a "spiritual elitism" that is unhealthy and sets the groundwork for a lot of arrogance and control of people. In direct opposition to TWI's arrogance, I believe the scripture and especially how all that stuff is set within the "love" chapter in Corinthians. I firmly believe that if people are in a prayer group and want to worship God and love one another, that these messages will be honored by God. I really don't think God cares as much about whether one guy interprets his own or another guy does. I think the excellor session stuff with all of the "practice" on starting tongues with the letter "c" and all the 3x in a row tongues/interpretation is a bunch of malarkey. It's just a vehicle for people to get all puffed up and judge their brothers in Christ and get into the foolishness of comparing yourself to one another. I'm sure TWI fans will sputter "but, but, but people need instruction". No they don't. Most of the so-called instruction in VP's classes maybe he put in there because of his own hangups about lying about it to Oral Roberts and his experience. I don't know, but it turned into a huge legalism endeavor. I say pray. If you're inspired, pray in tongues. I don't really know if that's the "glossolalia" thing people describe or something else, and I really don't care. It's just part of my prayer life and my relationship with God and my Savior. If you pray with a group and everyone wants some inspiration and is up for it, do it. But if nobody ever does, still love is greater. Oh, one more thing. All the bodybuilder talk about making yourself "spiritually strong" so you can "operate the revelation and impartation manifestations". Yeah that's crapola too. If God needs to speak with you He can find a way you can understand. If He needs to you do something for Him same thing goes. He can let you know. It absolutely will have nothing to do with how much you walk around doing glossolalia while you're doing laundry.

So one of the things I remember is that during the 2 lawsuits (Allen, Barnes), Louis Columbo (Rozie / TWI attorney) had deposed Martindale and basically forced him under fear of prosecution for perjury to detail out a list of all of the women he had affairs with. This came up because the Allen's attorney had brought up questions and seemed to have knowledge during the preliminary depositions of some of these affairs that Martindale had not disclosed to Columbo. Reportedly this list was pretty long. After that, TWI took this list and I think mostly the VP - HP - had meetings with each one of these women and/or couples to "counsel" them that this was wrong. The idea they presented was that it was also the girls fault as they had to have a motive of getting something out of it. So blame the girls. This "blame and guilt tactic" also discouraged or headed off further lawsuits. The fallout from these meetings is that many couples where the wife was having an affair with Craig they moved them down from big shot positions to little shot positions. Other situations the girls were smarter, and basically traded upon their silence for a better assignment - full-time paid assignments mostly. From the fallout of all these "counseling meetings" there were a number of higher-ups that became fearful of their activities outside of their marriages, and chose exit paths at that time before they were caught. I think among big shot leaders, it would have been almost impossible to not have run up against these types of scenarios. Certainly Wayne of CFF tells stories about having confronted Craig on this. Ralph's GS Radio sharings indicate his knowledge of this and confrontation of this. I think Schoenheit probably wrote his adultery research paper without any knowledge of the pervasiveness of the practice - maybe in response to an incident of someone who came to him in confidence. He probably didn't realize the pervasiveness until he was fired. Some big shot leaders partook of the adulterous fruit. Others did not. I suppose it's a possibility that some were unaware, but at some point it would have to be more of an ostrich head in the sand unaware, or unaware because they looked the other way on purpose scenario.