chockfull

So the progress I'm seeing in this post is at least NOW you are admitting this is a firsthand account as opposed to calling it: From what I read, johniam heard someone slander his wife and children. The person doing the slandering was not only a CR&F member, but also the local fellowship coordinator, and as well the house coordinator at the Adv. Class. As such, that person had a spiritual responsibility in leadership beyond just being a sister in Christ, and screwed it up. Yes, she apologized, but with the level of thought involved with the slander obviously this was not just an off-the-cuff statement, but slander that was very thought-thru and very unloving. It takes time to unravel thoughts like that that have been given time to brood in that fashion. Realize that this person was at CR&F's apex event of the year, and was a representative of the organization. What evidence was there beyond a simple apology that all of those evil thoughts in the woman's heart had been dealt with, rooted out, and reversed? johniam made a reasonable decision. If I had a wife and children were denigrated and slandered by a leader in the organization, I probably would have left that class too. would you want your kids facing an uphill battle against an unloving woman with a slanderous opinion of them? When they all arrived home from the advanced class, that leader's wife had a decision to make. to be loving (meaning to accept the full consequences of her sin of slandering johniam and continue to be apologetic for that sin), or to abuse her position of spiritual authority to try and force john to "forgive" and when she couldn't get his verbal acquiescence, to kick him out of the fellowship and say he was no longer welcome. some people say they are walking in love yet slander other people. some of them do this even while holding responsibility in the Christian church. Their old man ways are so encrusted that they feel their position of authority is more important than their behavior. thus they throw their spiritual weight around to force compliance, otherwise they kick people out. this is false repentance. it is not love. it is spiritual abuse. they are the ones that should be asking for forgiveness for the hardness of their heart, rather than trying to force it out of others. Well, I certainly see that for you, rather than slandering David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen who wrote "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", that maybe you ought to read it. It could improve your "spiritual sharpness". No, her sin was slander, followed by covering it up by kicking johniam out. She was joined in that sin by her husband, as well as the leadership in CR&F who knew about this and backed her up. How many that involved, who knows? People aren't entitled to forgiveness from someone they wronged, they earn it. Even if God instructs to forgive grevious sins, it NEVER is the place of a leader to use strong-arm tactics to enforce this.

Wow. So obviously you haven't read any of those books. For example, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". How exactly is it loving for you to trash these two gentlemen's heart efforts in presenting scripture from their perspective of growing a church in Minnesota from 160 to 3000 members? And how to keep spiritual abuse out of their congregation? Suffice it to say that book is not filled with fear, deceit, skepticism, bitterness, or outright evil. In contrast, it is filled with scripture, godly experience, wisdom, and love. Try reading it rather than censoring it with ignorance and hateful talk, all while promulgating being "loving" and lecturing us on being "spiritually sharp".

I felt like that leaving TWI. No support systems. No friends, distanced family. Felt like the ground under my feet was shaky. Had a nagging feeling the devil was going to ruin my life for the choice. But the smell of putrid fruit in my nose from the myriad of sources in the TWI leadership chain were so strong that I couldn't put my nose back to sleep and go back to them. I had to move onward. And it got better. Slowly. What did I do? Survive. Then heal.

So you are stating that the firsthand experiences of johniam recorded on this thread are not true? He went to a CR&F advanced class, was slandered by local leadership, left the class, and was told he was unwelcome at fellowships. And we are supposed to believe your vague generalities and pious platitudes over factual accounts? Why don't we start here - who are you? What is your involvement with CR&F? What is your position with them? Who is running them now? Where is the website?

A paranoid closet lesbian as a president of a fundamentalist Bible cult? No, smart isn't the first thing that comes to mind. Incurably conflicted? Possibly. It reads like a Greek tragedy. Thankfully I've moved past the tragedy portion of my life affected by this.

Nobody can. Why was Jesus missing? Because the false apostles and prophets running TWI were never and are not currently really building on Jesus Christ as the cornerstone of a church. They were building on their own egos, which dry up and blow away.

It's a good read for a scientific study. It's published in a peer reviewed mainstream Christian theology journal. And you're doing a good job representing it, especially considering your Satanic methods. (Too soon?)

It may be true that slander is widespread everywhere. Yet with TWI I started realizing that the levels I saw within that organization were reaching epic proportions compared to the normal stuff I saw around in profession and community, even in politics. You know you are in trouble when people climbing over one another's backs in profession and politics all seem to have more truthful conversations and a more real care for you than your TWI ministers, both local and at HQ.

Comments? Outside of the running commentary on receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I don't find that method of instruction any different from the following instruction also take from that same source (Poythress - Speaking in Tongues: A Guide to Research on Glossolalia) I mean I can't truly know what is in a man's heart when he is praying, but certainly I can question the methods as suspect. And yes, I realize that all of the quoted instruction we are referencing sounds remarkably similar to VP's instruction...

Yes, like that. I commented on that post and bumped it up.

I have seen way too many people ganged up on and character assassinated in TWI, with yelling and curse words. It has happened throughout the decades and under all of the different TWI presidents. It's probably worse currently as they lie and say it doesn't happen now. I have seen it happen with VP and LCM directly. I've seen it happen with Rosalie, however Rosalie is a coward - she usually has her cronies do it for her to keep her lilly-white sepulcher hands whitewashed. It's all venom, all slander, all trumped up BS "sins" piled on the person, then sending them away or casting them out. What my mind has gone to time after time immediately after witnessing one of these so-called meetings and character assassinations is the account of the scapegoat in the OT - pile all the sins of Israel on one little goat as a sacrifice, then send it out into the wilderness to die on its own. It's very sick, and represents the darker side of what human nature is capable of. All under the guise of speaking for God.

I started to write a long response to the last post, then I removed everything not associated with the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". I was left with the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Don't forget your towel. :biglaugh:

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If they wanted to tell the truth they should have modified it to say: "The Way International does not support or engage in the slander of any individual, group, or country as an official position. However, as an unofficial position and actual practice, we absolutely slander almost everyone we can think of. Since we teach an elitist Christian attitude, we ensure that slander is spread out evenly among all ethnic and religious backgrounds. However, we reserve the greatest slander and shunning practices for those that have endured our BS for years and then left."

I don't know is an honest answer. The Pentecost record "seems" to have a purpose for it in an instant translation service for attendees of the sermon. Other accounts in Acts that refer to speaking in tongues that is not present - i.e. nobody there needed translation. In that it "seems" similar to today's accounts. Sure I observed that, except I said it was a special miracle, not a one-time deal. I've heard several accounts of meetings where someone in the audience knows the tongue of the person speaking in tongues. Socks just provided a first-hand account of that exact thing happening. So, unless he is lying or deluding himself (a popular viewpoint on this thread), there is another confirmation of that happening. Each one of those cases would be a miracle. The purpose would be what scriptures describe it as. For example, a clear record is Acts 10:46 - the first record of the Gentiles conversion. It says they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. So in that record "magnifying God" would be the purpose that is recorded. Acts 19:6 is another record. There it states they spoke with tongues and prophesied. The context looks like it is just a display of God's power, and the new birth involved. Agreed. Except for sometimes believers can be inspired by signs too. Look at socks account of someone understanding the tongue in a meeting. I didn't say anything. I quoted I Cor. 14, which expresses Paul's desire for all of them to speak in tongues as well as the instruction of the difference between just the tongues and tongues with interpretation and/or prophecy. Yes, I realize Corinthians is filled with reproof. It is even noted by theologians as a reproof epistle. Part of what reproof entails is detailed specific instruction on the right way and the wrong way. In that letter, we see a lot of specific instruction regarding tongues, interpretation, prophecy. I'm sure Paul's intent was not that people would cherry pick verses out of that section and ignore truths in it just because it was a reproof letter. There's a little bit of internal conflict in what you are saying here. Your paraphrase seems relatively accurate - Paul instructing them if there is not an interpretation to stop SIT out loud causing chaos in the meeting. If that was the case, do it quietly to yourself. Why would he instruct them to do it quietly to themselves if there was no purpose in doing so? He wouldn't. His instruction was that if they were not edifying the body, to do it quietly as private prayer and worship and keep it to themselves. Again, Acts 10:46 indicates that SIT is magnifying God. So that's a stated scriptural purpose for doing it quietly to themselves. Apparently scriptures don't seem to indicate it is pointless. I think there is still a lot of confusion in churches surrounding the spiritual gifts. Thus VP went the route of defining one gift and 9 manifestations. He plagiarized J.E.Stiles on the RHST book and B.G.Leonard on the classes being centered around that topic and the receiving of it. Even TWI teaches that 8 manifestations are for others profit, one / SIT is for one's own profit. There are a bunch of topics in that chapter 12. I mean look at I Cor. 12:28 - where we have apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healings, helps, governments, and tongues. And a seeming order of importance in the church for all of those. I can see the reproof, don't know about the sarcasm. From my perspective being sarcastic to someone while reproving them doesn't help them a whole lot, and usually backfires. I can't see my Father being sarcastic to me while reproving me. He doesn't work that way. Sure, it's not in a lot of places. Then again neither is tithing, debt, or a bunch of other topics. Corinthians is a reproof epistle. As such, tone is important, but not to the extent that it is meant that you ignore the content of the message stated just to focus on the tone of the message. People who are messing something up need patience, love, and to walk them through how to do it right step by step. I'm thankful for his posting too. Apparently he speaks in tongues as well, and relayed a personal experience of a special miracle where in a meeting in Northern California, someone spoke in a tongue that was a known language to Europeans visiting the meeting. To me that doesn't convey the message that it died out with the first century apostles. If you can't trust the scriptures to work, inspire, have an effect the same way for us today as they did for first century believers, then what is the point of even reading the Bible at all? For entertainment, as nice little stories, like "Aesop's Fables" or "Grimm's Fairy Tales" ??? Now I don't want to be a narrow-minded fundamentalist redneck (I've met some), but somewhere you have to draw a line and stand on one side of it or the other.

Well, to truly give honest consideration to your premise here requires something beyond immediately rejecting it mentally because it doesn't align with my previous belief system. Even if that's how I treat it in my own head. That may not be the best word, but it's not far off...

Well for me at least delving into the scientific studies on language, it doesn't seem science provides an absolute answer. It does provide some perspective, that what can be done from a believing God background in those studies isn't measurably different than what is done outside of that context. Scriptures are a challenge, especially to ex-Way peeps. TWI claimed to teach "the greatest truth known since the first century", yet by the abysmal behavior of their leaders, and the cult aspects of the group like isolation and control, micro-management, fear motivation, and shunning - when people leave the knee-jerk reaction is to reject ALL Way doctrine. (Or some start a splinter group - other issues there). Thus how they live counteracts all they teach, and can have the long-term fruit of driving people away from God and the Bible. Well from all I read and believe I don't see it required. I do see the mature Christian viewpoint being more concerned about how you can edify others in Christ. Personally it adds to my prayer life, and I see it as available to take part in for everyone. But again one more time it doesn't make one person's prayer life better than another's. God is the perfect parent - He loves all His kids the same unconditionally. For me, it helps my inspiration. Just don't rule it out - what do they say - don't let the hypocrites keep you from church? If you do approach it again some time in the future, I'd suggest a fresh start - seek it out among some in the charismatic Christian movement who have a good reputation. The two major denominational groups that I've seen that do this are the Pentecostals (and derivatives) and the Catholic Charismatics. I've learned some things embracing and investigating your viewpoint and sources, even if it is different than my personal beliefs. So I feel stronger (not in a more entrenched in my belief way). I hope all Christians can embrace discussion of this nature. I think we're supposed to add to one another, unlike the narrow-minded lock-step "likemindedness" practiced in the Way.

I don't see why it would change, at least without some scrap of evidence. To date, no evidence has been presented either doctrinally or scientifically in any thread here to document or explain why things would have changed between what is available in the first century to now. and your evidence for this? Why did they need it then? Very clearly the apostles were not the only one doing this in those times. To me this is a convenient way of avoiding the question. Instead of asking ourselves this question, let's ask ourselves another question. No, I think the original question is on topic, on point, and sufficient. What changed between the first century and now? And a following question - what documentation do we have of this change, either Biblically or scientifically? I don't simply believe VP as credible. And I search for ways to know something, especially if I'm putting my believing trust in it. I won't either simply accept or simply reject something just because of association with VP.

I know. You are consistent in presentng your beliefs and postulate. The only thing you haven't answered me on (if I didn't miss a post) was the question about what changed between the first century and now such that now everyone is faking it and then they weren't? To me to be a complete congruent set of beliefs you have to address that, not just leave it out there hanging.

OK. I'm not just debating you here. I really want to know what you think on this. Are you still formulating your opinion? All Christians faking it vs. TWI members and ex-members faking it because VP was a faker and taught them how to well vs. it's possible to be genuine and we can't really determine who's faking it? Hell, I have no problem facing kidding myself. I kidded myself for decades that TWI was an organization worth sacrificing my life for.

Now that's a viewpoint on the topic that leaves me with inspiration in my heart, instead of the feeling of a scientist with a cold soul. I know it doesn't prove anything.

I agree with you 100% on the indoctrination topic skyrider. It is a psychological tactic. It is a cult tactic. It is evil. It is absolutely how TWI operates, and the fear it breeds is its currency.

I would challenge you to go back through each and every account of tongues in Acts, and see for yourself whether or not they fit within the context of evangelizing to people who don't speak the language of the evangelist. Remember, Paul spoke the three common languages of the known world then. Paul studied under Gamaliel the elder, so spoke educated Hebrew. He grew up in Tarsus, a trade center. He spoke Greek, and the dialects involving the business language of the day. He wrote epistles to all of the Greek based churches in a language that both he and they understood. Check out and see in scripture if people who were converted spoke in tongues or not. If they did, who were they evangelizing to needing an outside translation in the towns they grew up in?

Well I agree with you that a lot of that epistle is spelling things out due to the Corinthian church's immaturity, and teaching them the correct attitude. I view the context as comparing the profit to the entire body to that of profit to the individual. Acknowledging both profits and directing the believer to focus on the one that is not selfish as opposed to focusing on the private one. I agree with you on the spiritual body building teachings in TWI. I think that was a stretch, and is not genuine doctrine. Nor are all the "excellor" session teachings. And I think that the fruit produced by this type of doctrinal error in teaching is a "spiritual elitism" attitude. I have renounced that attitude. This is why I keep saying over and over that I think that someone who does engage in the private prayer practice of SIT is not any different and certainly not better than those who choose not to. And ex-TWI members I think God looking on the heart would have zero problem at all with them never SIT for the rest of their life as part of a practice of renouncing and avoiding the leaven of the Pharisees. I agree. I'll seek it out there and read it. Thanks for doing that. I also am recording the references you recommend and will seek them out as well.

Here's a radical postulate. What if self-vocalization is the vehicle, and the spirit of God is the catalyst? That the only difference between the faked language and the genuine is the catalyst of the spirit of God, energized by the belief of the person acting? Vern approached that topic by the use of the term "T-Speech", and couldn't see any scientific difference between the two. But then again how adept has science been shown to prove spiritual matters in anything anyway? I mean, science can scarcely tell the difference between a live body and a dead body, and can't really produce much detail at all in the difference there. So to me it's not a huge stretch that science couldn't tell the difference in the injection of spirit into something. I mean, I look at how genuine revelation works from my experience (separate but related topic - gifts, manifestations, etc.). Usually I'm logically thinking through alternatives and facts and I take the next step which seems like just another logical step to me. Then well after the fact looking back, that next step doesn't seem like something I would have arrived at by the facts alone, so to me it means God was leading me in a certain direction. But in the moment, I couldn't tell the difference. Yes, I acknowledge the impact of TWI's teaching in a negative respect. I also realize that teaching can have the impact of driving people away from the experience down the road after they leave TWI. TWI had a lot of rote mechanics interjected, and a lot of "excellor" BS and practice, and immature teaching about pumping yourself up spiritually by SIT and so forth. But outside of that, what has changed? My personal experience with SIT was a little more like the Acts accounts - just pray and it happens.