chockfull

He followed in his "father in the Word's" footsteps? Plagiarism makes it easier, right?

Can't prove it either. Well, as we learned in PFAL, it may say apples on the outside, but that doesn't change the pickles on the inside. Sometimes, these guys words fit them too well.

Wow. I think you have something there. That's TWI's natural leadership selection process. If you have an odious enough personality where your mere presence causes a thousand to leave the immediate vicinity, then you have those qualities that TWI is looking for. You are a prime "prevailing" candidate.

Does it? Wierwille's angst over "he" referring to the Spirit is about what most charismatics have trouble with. Why would God play favorites? But underlying, we know God is no respecter of persons and we also know that God respects freedom of will. So what if the translation is better of "he" the Spirit, and that the understanding is God helps those to pursue spiritual gifts they are interested in? There are lots of possibilities outside of Wierwille's shoddy Greek work.

As long as you don't put all your eggs into one basket.

Do you think that maybe they were faking, seeing as like it was such a common theme throughout the rest of their lives?

You know, from my perspective trying to prove anything based off the actions of TWI leadership (myself previously included) is kind of like trying to investigate the ink on a $3 bill. Everyone was so wrapped up in their own private version of playing their part in the long con that you're never going to prove anything truthful from that one way or the other.

Trying to keep my splinter groups straight. Isn't CES the one where we had like the dueling catfight visions of supposed "discerning of spirits" revelation between Graser's wife and John Lynn's 2nd ex-wife? "I saw a snake, and it had your face." "I saw a hobo, and it was you". Then there was like this "prophetic council" established where all the men around refused to throw water on these cats, ending up in Lynn's divorce, Graser's kicking out, and the org basically falling apart? Somehow all that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence for going with their version of SIT, interpretation, prophecy. But hey, maybe that's just me. And who knows, maybe "John Lynn v.3 My Face Looks Like a Muppet" will again gain traction. :biglaugh: Now there's something that I can get on board with. I can hear the messages now: "I the Lord Thy God hate stealing. I even made up a commandment. All those books on your bookshelf, where the author stole his material from others? Um, yeah. I don't like that". "I God, Your Heavenly Father, created the heavens and earth in 7 days. And, I did it without micromanagement. Or boring Sunday sessions of reading cue cards". "There verily will be those that come to you with their noses in the air, looking down them at you. They will pretend to know what's best for you. They are fools. Don't listen to them. They need to clean up their own cr@p, and read those scripture I inspired about studying to be quiet and doing their own business. I did absolutely nothing to put them in their perceived position of being 'over' you". I know, not enough KJV English to be authentic. But hey, if we're going to make things up, let's make the messages at least plausible with how God would think about that stuff.

I like John Darby's translation. It leaves me with a lift in my step and an ever so slight accent like Brad Pitt in "Snatch".

Hey Mom, I met these cool people and took this class. Now I'm going out WOW to move across the country for a year. Where? I don't know yet. With who? I don't know yet. I'll find all of this out at the "Rock". Will I be able to come home at all? No. Can you visit me? Very briefly. What could go wrong?

Hey Raf, I'm not sure I found the link to Samarin's paper. All I ever found was it quoted in a bunch of places. Do you have a link for the original source? Pics or it didn't happen. :)

Polythress had a pet term for it - called it "t-speech", from theologically based free vocalization or something like that. Religious free vocalization seems to be a pretty close approximation of his term and one that the average reader probably could get the meaning of without reading his full study.

I think your idea of "hyperbole" or that the "and angels" part is a figure of speech emphasizing the aggrandizement of the act is a good one.

Well, I thought Vern Polythress was the one who noted that "free vocalization" by people not claiming to be God-inspired also could carry the characteristics of a natural language. I guess meaning that people could subconsciously control the flow of this, cadence, breakup. Meaning words, phrases, sentences. Like a real language. So I actually thought it was exactly the opposite. The research DOES show tongues display the characteristics of real languages. But the kicker was that so does free vocalization. I'll dig out quotes if anyone needs it. They are all from one source....

I agree with all of this. I don't understand. I thought Steve was bringing up I Cor. 13:1. And noting that the love in your heart is what's important, not the tongue. Honestly, when my head is into this topic with you guys, I don't SIT at all in my prayer life. I just pray with words and thoughts. SIT makes me feel greasy in this situation. It just feels hypocritical and cheap. Oh, sorry I get it now. You are focusing on the phrase "tongues of men and angels" and disputing the interpretation of the "and angels" part. I honestly don't know on that one. When I pray it sounds like a language to me. Or a number of them. Maybe I'll learn more about this sometime. I think that's the only place in the Bible that tongues of angels is mentioned, right? It does sound weaker from a logic perspective. And free vocalization is an easier more logical explanation. But it is a senses explanation, not a spiritual explanation.

I understand what you are saying. It's a natural line of logic from the admission of faking it. Next, you question whether you are unique - is it REALLY available to Christians or not. Next, you tie in the false teacher input wondering whether because VP was an evil guy that whether he introduced devil spirits into our lives by his false teachings. So one of the underlying questions is "how much can God protect someone in a false ministry?" I'm sure everyone on this forum has had positive Christian experiences while in TWI. (Yes, I know many may question whether the experiences were genuinely Christian or not). "Can God have protected our hearts while experiencing the BS of TWI so that we could heal?" Quite obviously there is a lot of emotional damage from how TWI operates. So in that respect yes the false teachings have taken their toll. But without admitting the positive experiences as being from God's influence, how to reconcile them? Some of it goes right down to what you believe about God? Is He good always? Is He powerful enough to protect us even under false teachers influence? I think Paul's teachings on false teachers and the impact are clear. Agree VP was a false teacher, and TWI was/is a cult. PFAL and "word of faith" theology? I don't even know what that is. I mean Norman Vincent Peale wrote "The Power of Positive Thinking", and wrote for many mainstream Christian magazines in addition to his books. Is he based in the occult? I certainly always thought VP's "bodybuilder" analogies with SIT were a little far-fetched. I didn't buy that. I also didn't buy that it's your only "proof" of eternal life. If that's all you need then what about faith? I did appreciate that at least PFAL listed all the verses related to SIT in any conceivable fashion. That was so much more than any denominational minister ever did for me, and I asked them. However, the next step of leaping to logical conclusions I felt was interspersed in the teachings. For myself, since SIT was more naturally occurring as part of my prayer life since a teen, it was easy just to keep praying and kind of hold the BS in abeyance. Sudo's "seemed like a good idea at the time" I can relate to. I'm so embarrassed over all those "excellor" sessions I led, having people start with the letter "C" then fabricate the tongue language (mostly). And all the extemporaneous BS I presented similarly in that light - the "bodybuilder" analogy even though I didn't fully agree with it, the "building fluency" lines of BS. Actually it wasn't a good idea at the time - it was BS. I was just blind to it. I guess picking up the pieces is never easy. That's why we need to talk to each other.

All I'm saying on the atheist logic is that an atheist would typically describe a Christian's prayer life as them talking to themselves and making up answers. That is basically what someone praying to God to SIT, receiving no answer, and making up the free vocalization to appease themselves is saying. So the logic to me is similar to how an atheist would explain the circumstance. That's all. I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't SIT is an atheist. Geez you guys read a lot into a sentence. I read your post, but understanding how you got there from what I wrote is puzzling. Yes lots of Christians have disputed the veracity of SIT, and I'm sure probably none of them are atheists.

Well, I like Steve's post because it does make a difference your attitude when praying. Cor. does say you become a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal. And I know this may not be popular on this thread, but there is a real possibility that what you (and Raf, and others) did in TWI regarding this topic is different than what others did. We haven't addressed that on this thread yet. To me that is logically more reasonable of an explanation than trying to convince me that I was praying to God and somehow by mistake "another spirit" answered my prayer. Or that I was praying to God and when receiving something instead it was just me making it up on my own for whatever reason. That logic sounds like something atheists would come up with.

Starting a leadership program to issue a college degree. Who needs a college? Do it on the farm. Who needs trained educators? The Pike's Peak boxtop doctorate will do. Plus, we can plagiarize everything. Study? Read your Bible for 4 hours. Work? Clean up the farm. Oh, and you can stay as long as your money holds out. You know, the money you have to beg from other TWI members. Why? Because it's not accredited, so can't get normal forms of government financing. Oh, and you're paying to work on the farm, as opposed to making minimum wage even. I mean, with such a brilliant scheme thinking this stuff through, what could go wrong?

I can think of nothing better to illustrate the problem with TWI than OldSkool's experience here. This is a Christian organization, supposedly. It is supposedly based in the New Testament Grace Administration. Grace is supposed to rule the present truth. And you will see all sorts of pious platitudes coming out of these people's mouths. Just look at TWI's website, for instance. Nice packaged short positive teachings. Grace, etc. But when you peel back the onion, the problem is this is the way TWI functions, like OldSkool's experience. Completely opposite of what you would expect from Christians. Using people. Trading them like slaves. Blaming people for sickness in this world. A person supposed to be a clergyman or woman standing against marriages, trying to sow dischord, stir things up, start arguments so they can blame them. How clueless. Abusing the weak, the poor, the downtrodden. They are enemies of Jesus Christ.

And we wonder why TWI has all chiefs and no Indians now. It's not rocket science. What a bunch of cr@p johniam. The only good part about it is that they will be held accountable when Jesus Christ comes back, and that you're better off without them. These guys abusing their spiritual authority and targeting little kids with disabilities just makes my blood boil.

Someone talking badly about autistic kids makes it even worse in my book. You are 100% correct that TWI never had the capacity to handle this kind of thing. Actually I could broaden that and say that TWI never had the capacity or training of HFC's to handle ANYTHING out of the ordinary like this. And neither did the Way Corps training. So as a result, with the emphasis on conformity and obedience, the weak in leadership attack that which doesn't conform. And act worse than an unbeliever. Even the world has a clue in these categories, and provides special needs attention in schools. It may not be perfect, but it's better than TWI. I feel sorry you had to go through that johniam and family.

Yes, I agree with much of what you write here. VP and his successors were/are all Pharisees. Scripture instructs us to beware their leaven. Whatever path we are going to take choosing to rebuild our Christian lives, it has to be a new path, not traveling down existing TWI theology paths. You can't put new wine in old wineskins. So the challenge comes in with the bit "it was a lie". The best lies have elements of truth within them to increase credibility. You can't summarily dismiss 100% of VP's doctrine. I mean he did teach the new birth, for instance. We're a little divided on where to go on this thread w/r to SIT. Some feel genuine in praying that way, others feel that rejecting it summarily as part of VP's corrupt doctrine is best. We've definitely learned that faking it is possible, pretty much scientifically proving that TWI's teaching that it was not possible to fake it was 100% erroneous. The published studies on this are pretty clear. IMO the important part is the new wineskins. And my feelings on that are that's what's in the heart, not what's on the surface.

Yeah. We were probably all deaf. At least speaking for myself I was. Great advice.

Well, maybe if the entire organization was familiar with that book and stood against the practice of spiritual abuse, they would be able to detect and eliminate it in their midst. And again, you denigrating and censoring books you have not read is not living the love of God, it is ignorance and slander. I see something different on this forum. I see a whole bunch of God's children who were very hurt by false leaders in a supposed Christian organization. They are all recovering, trying to love God and one another, heal, and move on. And sometimes there are judgmental and unloving people who blow thru and call them names, judge them, and accuse them of things. And usually those people excuse the sins of the abusive leadership. Hmmm. Now which one of these groups do you think represents more of the love of God? I'm not defending what I'm telling you either. It is the simple honest truth. If you want to move on and build relationships with people in the household of God, then do it. If not, then I guess calling people names and leaving works too. It's not a Christian behavior, but I've come to see that you can't believe everyone's words - you have to see the fruit of their lives.