chockfull

You know H, that's an interesting thing to consider you brought up, about whether or not we can really separate ourselves from our past as its still part of us. That made me actually go look up Phil. 3:13 again and look at some of those words. The religious would lecture about "forgetting the past", etc., etc., etc. and speak ex cathedra from a throne and try to shut down talking about it. But I tell you I can sure remember the offences that happened to me in detail and with great clarity, many years later. So what does that section mean to me? One of the definitions of that word "forget" is "to neglect, no longer caring for". I guess I'd have to say that a lot like the things you are sharing, what I am building now is more important to me than all that. Education, business, hobbies, relationships in my community. And yes, studying the Bible. But I do it now more for me - what interests me, rather than out of obligation or religious duress. I guess over time I spend more time on the things I love and less time on all the sicko stuff I went through. But I tell you, the indignation at the injustice still gets me worked up. And maybe that's a good thing, to keep evil from functioning. Congrats to you on what you've built, rascal you too. And who cares if we could have done it years ago? God will bless us and prosper what we're doing now because He's God. DWBH, Thanks for all you've done and posted. You're cool in my book. CF

Apparantly you haven't read Rom. 8:30 - you know, the one right before calling us "more than conquerors"? And also have missed Hebrews 13:20 Hebrews "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant" You probably also missed the whole context of VPW's Foundational Class, which the theme verse is John 10:10, and the context talks about Jesus, the good shepherd, and his sheep. I guess Jesus must have been using the bible to wound and hurt people when he drew the same analogy of himself as a shepherd and believers as sheep. And I'm sure you must have overlooked I Peter 2:25 - "For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls" But hey, look on the bright side. Your powers of wrongly dividing administrations and ignoring truth outside of the Grace Administration to justify spiritual abuse, and shift the blame away from leaders who hurt people on to the people and those who speak up against it probably displays some of the leadership qualities that abusive organizations actively seek. Best of wishes with all that. Oh, and fyi I have a very merry heart. It's overjoyed and all healed up from the past abuses I've suffered because I've been able to get to the truth of the Word rather than living in denial. I can call it what it is, allow vengeance to be the Lord's, and move on in life with a light heart. No delusions to weigh me down.

WTH, I have a suggestion for you to further your Biblical studies on the topic of offences. Read Ezekiel 34. Many times people can quote scripture, sound so holy, and yet never be further from the truth. The major point of logic you are missing in your Biblical studies is that offences that happen between believers are vastly different than offences that happen under the guise of spiritual authority. God doesn’t say in Ezekiel 34 “Woe unto the sheep who have not been cared for and are hungry, scattered, and injured. They are living under offence. They need to get over their offence so as not to be controlled by the enemy”. “Woe unto the sheep that bleat because they are hurt. They are not doing God a favor by bleating, and don’t understand that I never lead sheep by their bleating”. “Woe unto the other sheep that bleat in sympathy with the injured sheep”. “Woe unto Ezekiel who is speaking these words, as he is promoting strife and division. He is not spiritually qualified to restore anyone. He should remain quiet and not repeat the sins of the shepherd to anyone, but sweep them under the carpet.” It is not the sheep’s fault. It is not the voice of the account of the sheep’s mistreatment’s fault. It is the shepherds’ fault. The shepherds fed themselves, and not the sheep. God apparently has somewhat of a problem with that if you read Ezekiel 34. v. 18 and 19 are intriguing: “Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.” Apparantly God doesn’t want people to belittle, hide, or deny the abuse. Also, the solution doesn’t seem to be to instruct the sheep to bleat in silence so nobody else hears. The hope seems to be when the fat-headed shepherds are tossed out and God brings in a new shepherd like David who will turn things around. Perhaps that is figurative and only available at the return with the Chief Shepherd. Perhaps it’s available today too. Either way, the Ezek 34 solution is in v. 22 – 31: “Ezekiel 34:22-31 22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. 31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.” Now that someone has taught you the truth of the Word, are you still going to lecture people?

WD, just because you say you stand for truth doesn't make it so. Prove it. Whether or not you accept info without corroborating evidence on an anonymous internet forum is beyond irrelevant. Most people post here to help heal from spiritual abuse. Not to bash TWI, although sometimes that happens as a corollary. Your examples of OJ and Vick are ridiculous. They had plenty of reason to lie - to avoid prison. People here are long gone and removed. They don't have great personal gain for telling their stories. If you have some vision of yourself like your a savior of TWI, standing for truth, or forcing people to heal, your vision is false. People extract themselves from being and thinking like victims at their own pace. Saying "get over it" is abuse like propounded by many of the TWI leadership that originally afflicted them. I'm new here but just coming up to speed on the reason behind your far-reaching popularity on this site.

Actually one of the main problems I observed was not that there were "rogue" doctrines floating around not supported by TWI, but that leaders were outstanding mimics. If someone was being controlling to them, they would pass it down the line and magnify it. If HQ was requiring 10 hours a week volunteer time reporting back on ridiculous BS, local leaders would multiply it. It reminded me of the Egyptians - when the slaves complained, they made them find their own straw to make bricks. If leaders spoke harshly from the top, that also would magnify. If teachings were supposed to be real scripted and bland, then that was what people mimic, and people caught up on sleep in fellowship. These leaders in such a controlling environment became experts at adapting to fit in and keep scrutiny off of themselves. Quite a political environment. And there was plausible deniability all through the leaders ranks. "I'm just treating you how I'm being treated". Then no blame could be laid anywhere. Quite a web of abuse, denial, and coverup. They should have had everybody serve on a volunteer basis so none of this CYA and protecting the little rice bowl behavior continued.

Labor on RFR's house, Corpse Chalet + offices, Moratorium, Gunnison + upgrades, Emporia, Indiana, Tinney, properties, 3 motorcoaches, 2 planes, 100s of automobiles, $25M in fixed assets, $25M in long-term investment assets. Free slave labor. What did we get in return? According to IRS, "intangible services", and the joy of knowing that the ministry owes us nothing but we owe the ministry everything.

What did Santa bring you? CF "Dedicated to putting the X back in Xmas"

I wrote something that was semi funny and changed my mind...

I wanted to comment on teachings w/r to this. First of all outside of the classes videotaped, and STS, there was virtually no quality control on any teachings. Leaders were and probably are free to teach whatever they want. If people complained enough and reported the teachings depending on the timeframe in the ministry they would either be blackballed by the leader, or if they could get enough public opinion going could get the leader removed or moved. For someone to say "I never heard that taught - prove it" is pretty stupid. Prove that it didn't get taught. With the known lack of quality control in the structure, and the known personal abuses, it is much more likely to your average reasonable man that a lot of crap did get taught. Now on the other side of the coin, is there a responsibility to check things taught against the Word and ensure they are rightly divided for each person? I certainly have heard some pretty wacked out things in teachings, have gone home and considered them, and come to the conclusion "that is pretty much BS", regardless of the title of the teacher. Don't believe everything everyone tells you. I even remember hearing something in a quote about "the fleeting shadow of a few great names". One of the biggest problems there is the accountability from HQ for misbehavior in teaching or action. This is why the lawsuits got settled, because paying $1M or whatever was the lesser of 2 evils to the BOD than facing the public depositions detailing knowledge of abuse. Yes, absolutely there is accountability for abuse with people placing leaders in charge. And how they have always handled it is by ad hominem attack on those bringing up charges, and sweeping it under the carpet. And there's these leaders that love their little positions and titles. That is nothing more than the love of money (figurative power and influence money can buy included) being the root of all evil. God thinks more of the new Christian asking for forgiveness for all their sins than these pinheads who pretend to talk for Him, control people, and present a holier than thou image. With the marriage teachings, I mean look at the source. You're not exactly going to get a lot of solidarity out of VPW or LCM in that category of life. Beating or denigrating women is abuse, adultery is sin, sex for manipulation will just cause problems. However, seducing your spouse at the right time can be a hell of a lot of fun for both. And gourmet cooking or a nice meal initiated by either spouse can be great foreplay. All right, the meter on my .02 is saying "expired".

Sniff... That was beautiful.... Wipes tear from eye.

I think a lot of the atrocity in the marriage stuff happened because of the philandering of VPW and LCM. Other leaders mimic'd a certain disdain for and abuse towards women. To be fair, different places I lived were better in that respect, with WC leaders treating wives well and not promulgating an environment of abuse. Actually some of the more major Way problems IMO were due to people mimicing the sermons they saw rather than the actual supported teaching. Anyway, there's my .02.

Yeah - it was the informal sex part of it that was the most problematic.

sweet. that so needs to become my avatar.

In general, no. However, I have found easy answers in some categories. It just depends on the question. For example, if my wife asks me "Honey, will you do ______ for me?" The easy answer is YES. In that scenario, NO is never an easy answer...

A lot of this stuff you mention is really sad. I was a lot more naieve when younger, and believed that people in authority had my best interests in mind. There was an awakening. Now I'm a little more cynical and look at authority for "what's in it for them". God is not mocked though - people reap what they sow.

It's all good. I would have to answer chock full of nuts. Whether that is referring to my brand preference for coffee, or a mental state is open for interpretation and probably varies from day to day and depends on who you talk to... ;)

I'm new here - replying to this thread. As I understand it, this is about dealing with offences? WTH the original poster had a lot to say about being hurt. I think certainly hurt we've experienced in the past can consume us, as well as the desire for justice. Although I'd like to see it myself, I have come to the conclusion that vengeance is the Lord's. Where I don't agree with the original poster is that someone can dictate to another "get over it". Lecturing a cut on your arm doesn't make it heal faster. Sleep, prayer, love, and a band aid are a better solution. Maybe this site offers some of that. Most of the rest of the thread is about a couple people offending each other and how they deal with that?