chockfull

Since I was the one talking bans I just wanted to say the voting aspect would be there to express the collective opinion of people posting on the site, and would be something to forward to a moderator to consider the appropriate action to take against an individual. Ban, moderate posts, or whatever course of action necessary - I'm glad I brought it up. Having to argue every little point with these two on here is a complete waste of time. Maybe this type of action will reign them in a little. Beyond that, from my perspective I'm certainly not important enough where I think moderators need to please me with their actions. Run your site and your forums as you see fit. I'm glad they are around.

Oak, I'm not an innie but have enough contact with people who are to know a lot of this stuff. 1. Yes - Corps at HQ as of a couple years ago. Gunnison is only a vacation spot now where they run classes. No BOD member there anymore. 2. No, still in force. 3. Well, last year yes. This year the BOD is a new structure where the 5 pompous @sses are just "Board Members" with R0sie 0'Donnell R1venbark as the "Chairman of the Board". They even have new titles, like Donna as "Chief Administrative Officer" - hahahaha, and a CFO. They have people running things for them with titles. It's still all about politics and shining up to the right people. 4. Candidate = like old Apprentice year in local areas. Apprentice = assigned to go out Way Disciple and run a team. 2 yrs in-residence, then graduate. The old pillars are trying to convince their kids to go in now, with little success as Gen X/Y seem to have a few more brain cells than allowing all that control over them.

You know, Don, one interesting thing about that book is that it only covers time prior to the hippie days of the 70's. I've always wondered if that was because Dorothy felt that the time before VP got his motorcoach and started acting like Hugh Hefner was the only genuine part of the man and any positive influence he had. I always thought she was a sweet lady and was glad to know her, but in all honesty she probably was an enabler, if due nothing more to the strong character of the culture she grew up in preventing her from leaving him.

Yeah, when you get to thinking about it everybody looked at them like the next incarnation of the apostle Paul, yet in reality you could probably go into any random church in any town and pick out any random Christian that would have twice the moral Christian character of any of these idiots.

Yes, what bothers everyone is pretty universal. The problem with asking these two to apologize is it's never going to happen, along with them never stopping this type of activity. How long have we read this same type of drivel from these two? I mean one guy has a business interest to protect, and the other is probably a current TWI leader with a lot of time on their hands living off the ABS thinking they're 'protecting the ministry' by attacking victims. What exactly do they add to these forums?

Sure - I'm glad paw doesn't ban people quickly. I also agree that the normal squabbles that go on shouldn't be a cause to ban someone, or that community votes should be the method. Attacking a victim, now, in my opinion is a different story. I had enough of people attacking victims and covering up their actions in TWI. I don't need that kind of thing having discussions and/or debates on a site that is the only place that allows the uncovering of the BS. Everybody is pretty much sick of the pseudo courtroom type of posturing going on with these two clowns which completely bypass the intent of any law which is to provide a level playing field, not to cover up witness testimony. I mean, as much as it pains me to not provide a smoke screen for someone to peddle their old bootleg collections of VPW teachings and materials by keeping the VPW hype alive, I think I could live with that to get rid of some of the static. (OK, maybe it doesn't pain me that much). I'd just prefer that people's stories are allowed to be shared without the attacks.

Can we vote to ban WhiteDove and Oldiesman from the forums as punishment? Many forum sites impose this upon people for a period of time like 30 days as administrative action. Temp ban them for being bullies and continuously spewing the same BS attacking victims and acting like courtroom lawyers. Maybe if you temp ban them that will communicate what are acceptable posts. Or maybe they'll get all huffy and leave. Either way great.

Seeing it's your birthday, are you 65 yet? If so, you would be eligible for your own policy to step down from your high throne and become emeritus rather than continuing to garner power to yourself by placing yourself in the highest position you can. Do you plan to do this? If not, it is something you should seriously consider. There are broken lives and the innocent crying out which all witness against you calling for your demise. Listen to their voices and stop adding to their numbers. Since you have no idea how to do this, stepping down would be your best option. That would indeed be a happy birthday.

That's the difference between a genuine minister and false ministers. Genuine ministers are able to see the wounds of the sheep and apply dressings to heal. False ministers cause the wounds, deny their involvement, refuse to acknowledge that there are any wounds, if confronted by the abundance of evidence of the wounds they blame the sheep all the while themselves subsisting on that which the sheep provide. Also, their conscience is seared with a hot iron so they don't even see they are like that. Which is why you have to spell it out in terms a kindergartner can understand. Genuine ministers behave like the gentleman you describe above. False ministers behave like the BOD in TWI.

What is likely to happen is TWI consults with their Columbus attorneys, ABS $$ at work. They may or may not decide to draft some kind of ownership challenge letter to eBay. eBay probably has corporate policy in place for challenging ownership. They certainly have dealt with this before. eBay could potentially have liability making a mistake on either side - either as a fence for stolen goods, or for a lawsuit for opposing legal ownership sales. The latter would negatively affect their reputation as an online commerce entity, so they would likely pursue it rather than a policy like YouTube has - if you challenge video ownership, they take it down while it's being sorted out. There are real damages that could be made a case for if they take down an item for sale, so they likely have a level of burden of proof. The real likely scenario is that because eBay has $$$$, TWI may not pursue it beyond an initial letter. They only pursue small entities with less resources that they think they can push around with their capital. You know, like widows, small businesses, poor individuals, small churches, etc. And TWI has become a lot better at disguising what they spend on legal endeavors. They control the flow of information to their followers. As an example, how many TWI followers do you think have read even the publicly available financial statement posted in another thread? I would guess next to none. They completely bury any potentially damaging numbers, like the cost of retaining attorneys in Columbus, or the cost of pursuing the insurance company that dropped them like a hot potato after all the lawsuit payouts. I think one of those legal lawsuit documents disclosed that the BOD spend like over $20,000 per year on liability insurance on themselves. I mean how would you feel as a follower to know that more than all your annual ABS goes towards providing insurance for BOD members potentially breaking the law and getting sued?

I do think it's interesting all of the detail regarding various blends of Unitarian logic. The main reason why is that seems to be the primary area that divides out all of the types of groups from mainstream Christianity. Many times people absorbed in this type of logic will live seperatist lives from mainstream Christians and avoid any kind of integration. Is Christ divided? Apparantly due to man's ego he appears to be. Personally, most of the main concerns I have with STFI, TWI, etc., are the fruit which you see at the top leadership levels. People who feel they have been "called of God" and who amass political power in organizations seem to commit the greatest atrocities against their brothers and sisters in Christ. This can be true in trinitarian and unitarian organizations. STFI / CES you can read all the transcripts about personal prophecy, and how those "ordained" behave, prophecying against one another. In many cases what's in a person's heart associated with that seems to be more "entitlement". The megalomaniac viewpoint is that because they view their accumulated power as God given, those that present any form of opposition they view as opposing God, and therefore evil. Like the leaders at Jerusalem zealous for the law, they seemed to be somewhat as Paul states, but added nothing to him. That's what I ask myself. What do these people add to our lives?

No, it means claiming LEGAL guilt of said crimes is not provable. And trying to apply LEGAL standards to evaluation of the life of a deceased man is delusional. And you keep trying to steer the evaluation towards the LEGAL arena where it does not apply. The LEGAL arena could apply to the current behavior of TWI current leadership, and that is probably why they refuse to do much of anything in public. It's very transparent that you have some kind of view of VPW that you are personally attached to that you need to preserve. This is why instead of allowing the public MORAL evaluation of VPW's life you try and discount his victims saying they present opinions only not fact, trying to steer the whole evaluation criteria under the purview of LEGAL standards. That is what is delusional. I can judge VPW's life by whatever standards and criteria I damn well please. And 20+ years after his death his legacy is looking more and more like that of a drunken lecher that latched on to the Zeitgeist of the "free love Jesus movement" and took it for a ride for about 14 years from 1972 to 1986. And there's a reasonable case to be made that his totalitarian style of leadership combined with sexual deviancy is the primary thing that has been passed along to subsequent leadership administrations in TWI. These damn people act like they are more of an intermediary between the believer and the Lord Jesus Christ than a Catholic priest you have to confess your sins to. We are not judging VPW guilty of LEGAL crimes. At times there is speculation as to how the man actually survived without any LEGAL consequences. Or get shot by someone he abused's relatives. We are judging VPW guilty of MORAL crimes, based upon the testimony of many firsthand victims. He was a MORAL deviant. He was a totalitarian. LCM followed in his footsteps, and the current idiots also.

That is true that there are undocumented claims by physical evidence. So because VPW is deceased, he doesn't seem to have anyone to be able to respond with facts to be able to refute the claims laid against him. Many people who were around during the timeframes of these accusations can provide corroboration of facts involved in the stories. Of course, it is very available for any of VPW's relatives, or current members of TWI to come forward in public and provide facts that would discount stories. Trying to hold these claims to some level of legal standard is ludicrous. There is no court case as there is no defendant. That means there are no depositions, or any of the other legal artifacts that are a byproduct. Which means that someone trying to apply those standards is delusional.

One of the difficult things is that the people in TWI leadership that have and continue to perpetrate, foment, and support these atrocities cover up their actions. They will not discuss actions publicly, or allow any factual evidence to come to light that they can control. They spin personal accounts, and continue to mark and avoid people, which closes the ranks around their version of facts. Part of this is due to fear of legal repurcusssions. So reasonable logical people in the absense of actual factual evidence need to reconstruct factual evidence through sources that they judge as reliable although they may not be to the level required by a court. However, on the other side, court proceedings have leverage in place such as the deposition process and consequences for false or incomplete testimony that also are not available to the individual. In other words, that leverage makes it more difficult for leaders to lie to cover up their atrocities. A clear example of this is that leverage is what flushed out LCM acts which he previously lied about. So whether or not individual detailed personal accounts of atrocities are "documentable" or not is irrelevant. In a public forum, they can be laid out for examination. If the leaders being accused want to refute the accuracy of these claims, they are certainly welcome to do so in the same public forum.

Thanks for the verse, Mark!!! Merry Christmas to you and yours.

I would say that open communication helps develop better relationships between people. Since they have not brought it up to volunteer information if you want that you would have to initiate it. Many times people aren't very good at talking freely to others - there are barriers. You have a barrier of fear here - that somehow asking them about their life might trigger a negative mental reflex. They have a barrier - maybe they are ashamed, hurt, etc. You never know that until talking about it. I would say basically prepare what you want to ask and ask it. You can always ask "What happened?" questions in various forms, and "How do you feel about that?" and "What are you going to do now?" types of questions without needing to interject a soapbox stand of any kind.

Jeff, Great job with how you're handling all this. You guys are in my prayers. Because of freedom of will there's not a whole lot you can do to affect the negatives from coming at you. But you can focus on building the positives. I remember studying 2 Tim. 1:7 about fear as a negative and power, love, and a sound mind as positives. Sometimes it takes a lot more work in building the positives to overcome one negative. But that's how we'd rather live anyway. As you are faithful to build a positive continuing relationship with your son it will bear fruit. -cf

It's amazing the lengths deluded people will go to because they believe the end justifies the means. What's really funny about that one is that the damages were originallly set around $25M. The settlement was sealed, but speculation has it that it had to be upwards of $1M. Rosie and crew talked about how their insurance "paid" for it so they didn't have to use ABS money. However their "insurance" was very expensive to pay for, and for the later lawsuits the insurance company tried to drop them for cause. One of the unpublished lawsuits in play recently is TWI going after the insurance company for not covering damage settlements for one of the subsequent lawsuits. Tell me they aren't using "the tithe that doeth still provide" to pay lawyer fees, initially cover settlements, and buy expensive liability insurance for their abusive head honchos. That should really make people feel comfortable sending in their weekly check. NOT!!! They pay for that instead of putting on events for their people like they used to. One thing that I hate on this site is people always appealing to the process of law in defense of abusers. Many cases of abuse are not able to be covered up exactly because it became public knowledge and the sheer outcry of public opinion forced a semblance of justice. The latest OJ case is an example. There is no jury in America that would not nail him to the wall after the fiasco involved in the first case. GS is exactly such a resource. People can come here and read up on things that happen behind closed doors in TWI leadership circles from firsthand accounts. There's a reason why they happened behind closed doors. There's a reason why TWI leadership is secretive. Eph 5:12,13 talks about things done in secret and made manifest. When the secret abuse, greed, political posturing, covering up, and more are made public and manifest, then the light can reprove them. These leaders know what they are doing is wrong, and that is why they hide things and lie about them. They don't allow things to be brought to light, lest their deeds would be reproved, and public opinion could be brought into play regarding their real actions and motives of heart.

Advice? Yes, absolutely. Just show them this video: That ought to cover it.

And on the Internet, people can tell their stories and be judged by the merit of the story as opposed to the court system which is expensive. If the abuser in the story feels slandered, then they can go to the court system for remedy, and enter discovery evidence, and present facts, and a judge or jury can render a verdict. At which time they could declare not guilt or innocence as those are criminal law terms not civil, but the successful outcome of a civil verdict and state the damages. Isn't it great how that works?

I'm not a trademark attorney, but I think there are certain phrases that are more easily copyrightable and defendable than others. "The Way International" is probably more defendable. "The Way" in and of itself is a phrase spoken by Jesus and recorded in scriptures. One of the problems with trying to copyright that or sue for infringement is that a largely defendable position is that Jesus owns the copyright and TWI just tried to camp on it later by filing US trademark documents. Which in reality is actually what happened.

VPW, through the 70's from what I can put together, had KC Pillai and Lamsa teach some all the while extolling their support of him, had a guy he said was seed of the serpent teach the Corps, and once in a while would have some other source like Bud Morgan speak. I don't recollect him ever exchanging teaching spots on the Sunday Service with other Christian denominations such as is common in mainstream Christianity. I'm sure if you have a comprehensive tape log list from all time you might find one or two exceptions to this, like Rufus Mosely teaching, or the like. So I will concede this point to you on the 70's, and state that there was some of that going on in the 70's, which as others took on running the ministry in the 80's decreased more and more. By the time VPW was gone, there was absolutely zero outside collaboration on teachings, which has continued to today. Congratulations, by sniping at one mostly correct sentence in the midst of paragraphs, you've managed to turn the attention of the thread from tithing and ABS and TWI practices on to yourself. I'm sure your motives are accuracy, but give it a rest and join the discussion. Back to the main point. TWI set themselves up as the only source of Biblical teaching. They then taught that the Bible is our only rule of faith and practice. And VPW taught the commutative law in mathematics in his Foundational Class - things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. So without directly stating so, followers were led to believe that TWI is the only source of truth for faith and practice. Statements of pretended humility such as "I don't have all the answers", or "It's not the only truth it's just the best package" placed in strategic places are false displays of humility to further increase followers trust. What is further irrefutable is what VPW believed about himself. He believed God talked to him telling him he would teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. He had a "phenomenon" experience including snow at gas pumps which are not corroborated by any outside source. He may have had a miraculous experience. But then again so may have Joseph Smith. VPW heard from God. Maybe so - the question is of course, "which god?" If the true God was teaching him the Word in his ear like it hadn't been known since the first century, why the need to plagiarize?

There are several reasons why libel cases have not been filed. The very top dogs avoid personal contact to insulate themselves, and have cronies do dirty work for them. Intimidation tactics are used to discourage lawsuits. They make up lies about very personal issues, such that taking legal action would expose a person to making public their personal business, which is a deterrant. They circle ranks among followers, blackballing individuals involved such that obtaining testimony would be difficult. When all that fails, they come up with a scapegoat and take punitive action against them to back off the victim. They use delaying and stalling tactics to push prosecution beyond legal limits which are typically 1 year to file. Actually, there's a lot of parallels there as to why rape perpetrators are not often prosecuted successfully.

To be 100% accurate what was taught is "the Bible is our ONLY rule of faith and practice". This was taught in many classes and forums. And outside of the "spritual 40 club" early on in the ministry, the practice of bringing in outside speakers and teachers certainly did not continue throughout the 70's when the organization was at its peak membership. 80's through current practices there have been "recommended reading lists" but no outside speakers or teachers. So the Way leadership set themselves up as the only source of teaching scriptures, and combined with the above public statement, it is splitting hairs to say they don't teach they are the only source for where followers obtain truth. There are a few levels of indirection, but the follower is led to that exact thing. Where this is completely seperatist compared to mainstream Christianity is that other Christian writers are not even considered. A home fellowship would never have the freedom to work through a Joel Olsteen or Joyce Meyer book, or even a specific topic workbook from mainstream Christian sources. There are weekly teaching topics focused on Way publications set by HQ leadership. Also taught was Uncle Harry's sharing on tithing and abundant sharing that the more he matured in the Christian walk the more he just gave all his money to The Way International, and considered other organizations as "second-rate causes". So by implication, "maturity" is held in equality to eliminating giving to other charitable organizations and giving solely to TWI. This viewpoint ha's been taught in TWI throughout the 70's to present.

johnj, Your approach here has some real merit. Basically much of the color of TWI teaching is law based, while professing to be among the only that truly understand "the grace administration". Going back to the law while made free from it turns an individual into a Pharisee. Galatians does speak much to the "bewitching" that goes on in bringing people under a false legalistic based doctrine. Jesus confronted the Pharisees for looking down at the widow giving a mite, while they used the "corbin" concept to keep from even caring for their own parents. TWI leadership mandates to their leadership teaching these principles on tithing and abundant sharing quarterly, including their debt policies and scriptures (the no mortgage policy). The majority of TWI followers are unable to own property unless they completely refuse this principle and buy a home anyway rebelling against the teachings, which has been becoming more common. Then they cannot be fellowship coordinators or attend the Advanced Class or the Advanced Class Specials which they have moved to bi-annually in Ohio at their HQ. TWI has a net worth of $55M, with roughly half of that in short term investment capital, which earns roughly $200K per year. They spend very little of that on the people, doing no country-wide events that are not debt restricted, and they keep expenses low - 75% of income goes to HQ, 25% stays in the states, and the majority of the 25% goes to pay salaries of the 1 or 2 couples working for TWI in the multi-state region. The corporate culture is to spend as little as possible to put on events, with many using free rooms. If you look at the fruit of the result of these teachings, you certainly don't see the prosperity promised, except for some of the higher executive positions in Ohio that are paying cash for homes there, own sailboats and the like. The average follower is kept poor and enslaved by these teachings, while the Pharisee class is enriched. The motor coaches certainly turned in to traveling sexual abuse centers, made so by both the first and second "men of God" of TWI. No wonder he died of cancer. He turned into a cancer.