chockfull

Yes, absolutely newlife. There ain't no org charts in the body of Christ.

No, that would be the host. The "fleas" just live there most of the time so Rosie's not scratching herself in public. Yes. Counts. You know they need to find inspiration for the latest round of horror movies somewhere. Sheesh. Doesn't that just make you want to move out to the farm? Where you have all sorts of entertainment? Cow tipping and morphing heads?

You know one of the things taught about manifestations - gifts of healing specifically, I do believe is true. Each healing itself is an energized gift from God and not dependant upon the quality of the person ministering. It's like someone who walked up to you and gave you $500 on the street. You can spend the $500, it is real. But does that mean the person giving it to you is not of questionable character? I really liked that one movie Steve Martin was in - Leap of Faith (1992), where he is the fake evangelist in the small town. The kid on crutches who's the brother of the girl Steve's pursuing gets healed genuinely. Then Steve's so ashamed by his actions he has to leave town. Great movie - kind of on topic to this stuff. My problems with TWI are nothing to do with God. He's remained unchanged. They are with people who say they are representing God, yet the fruit of their lives says otherwise. And systems which support, promote, and promulgate this false fruit.

Actually this here thread presents what I would label as an "ethical dilemma". Ex: I had good times in TWI, and associated with people who have proven to be of questionable morals. Also, since leaving TWI I have become more aware of the dark side of TWI and all it encompasses. I see that I was somewhat blinded to that while in TWI. So here's the dilemma. How do I view my time in TWI? How do I view my old friends in TWI? If I view my time as all evil then my life takes on a shadow over it of negativity and I'm tempted to become bitter. If I view my time as all good my life takes on a shadow of delusion and I'm tempted to become a "pollyanna" moron again. So it seems like the healthy alternative is somewhere in the middle. Yet when I try to talk about where the middle is I can't seem to pinpoint it. And it seems like other people are too far one way or the other. Too far one way, and it leads to becoming a bitter old person with no friends. Too far the other, and it leads to becoming a delusional old person with moral Alzheimers. And if I talk in generalities, I'm going to p!ss someone off as they will interpret it as criticism. I don't think there is a real answer, as it's an ethical dilemma. So we can all continue to bounce around the middle of it and never get there.

Fo shizzle. No logs, but I do have the "Encyclopedia of Ghosts and Spirits". Some cool fazhizzle in there.

oh, the horror. thank God for iTunes...

my .02 - it's possible for her to realize these things. Most of us have. It just takes time / patience. A gradual awakening process - "hey, that doesn't sound Christian, etc."

Yes, but it's double-talk. The talk of "heroes" in the Word steers more towards actions and away from personalities. Look at Hebrews 11 greater cloud of witnesses. It's not "Abraham at a young age was predestined by God and his own great young heart to live for God" then a whole bunch of drivel. It's basically an account of his greatest act of believing. TWI overemphasizes the "example" scriptures to justify their practices of hierarchical people worship. The ultimate in wannabe fanboys. That site smacks of that type of attitude.

God wouldn't want anyone to use Him as an excuse for their behavior. However, just remember that if there are people in her life that secretly disapprove of your relationship, then it would be a very common tactic to delay her or bring up some critical need to require her presence when they know of her plans to spend time with you. This would be subtle sabotage types of tactics, and if confronted on it they would most certainly deny it - it may even be subconscious for some of the brainwashed. The whole design of these tactics, of course, is to cause friction between you two, put a wedge in, and ultimately to split you up completely. Contrast this with genuine Christian behavior!!! Of course the key to defeating this is knowing about it first. It's hard to address directly as anything you might do would come off as either needy or unreasonable. Of course turnabout is fair play. Cancel plans you have with her to do some great service for God. Then when asked about it say "what I was doing was more important, don't get your panties in a bunch". If she complains, you can say the impression you got by her behavior in X,Y,Z is that is how she wanted things, and ask if you got the wrong impression. Just an idea of course.

brainfixed, I understood you perfectly the first time you said it - no explanation necessary. I can understand how you feel. Hell yes TWI is antichrist. And hell yes what they put in the brain is poison. So spew away at will my friend. chockfull

Yes. Sucks, doesn't it. Now I didn't do any of the predatorial sexual abuse stuff, but I supported a system financially, emotionally, and in leadership that was corrupt. I acted elitist as a Christian, I acted controlling because I followed example, I did all of that. I was a fool. I hurt people including my own family by my pride. All I can say is not anymore. Ever again. Once burned, shame on them. If I go to sleep and allow it a second time, shame on me. I'm not saying don't keep ties to innies. Or 'get over it'. Or anything like that. Now personally I see the vomit-inducing elitism of 99.5% of innies even when they are trying not to be that way. And I have found that once I dropped my pride, I've found better Christians in almost any walk of life I've chosen. Neighbors, co-workers, hobbyists. Hell you could throw a stone from any given street corner and find a person with a better heart than 99.5% of TWI delusional idiots. So yes, find new friends. They are better than old friends. Of course, there may be a couple exeptions you find. But most of the old friends I've found really weren't, and only cared due to association or attached to the ulterior motives in the group.

Good people in a bad system is actually one of the worst things about the whole deal. It keeps the allure going to stay. These good people are basically peer pressured into actions that are not good by the corruptness inherent in the system, through fear, peer pressure, and control. Everyone changes their actions to please the top cheese w/r to themselves. They divulge things about their lives that allow control not freedom. And as you traverse the 8 layers of leadership in TWI, with each layer comes more control and more temptation. Outlyers are eliminated. Lies are promulgated. Leaders 4, 5 layers up have tremendous pressure to keep their jobs, so will lie and throw someone under a bus in a heartbeat. Bribery is the currency traded, whether of physical goods, or emotional compliance or both. Even the good people develop an elitist attitude as a Christian. It's what they are taught, by example and words. An elitist attitude mixed up with poor to mediocre caliber action. They lie to themselves - you can read about it in I John 1. That's what they do. There are better people living in the neighborhoods we live in, going to the churches in the communities we live in, working at the jobs we do. More heart, more inherent moral standard to help someone they know. Make new friends. You'll be happier. You don't have to lose all your old ones. But just make new ones.

No. It's to get to know Him and develop a relationship with our Creator. Other things like not being a Pharisee and the proper use of the CAPLOCK button on our computers are just side benefits. No. They use their spritual authority and power for abuse. We point it out. Actually it's those that stay under their authority that allow them to be their judges and jurors. Others have filed lawsuits so that they can have more impartial judges and jurors. People around here are throwing themselves face down upon the ground? Wow. In front of people throwing up poison? Do drama much? Would it surprise you to find out that most sane people would consider your post a "HATEFUL OUTBURST"? Also, this begs the question since you brought it up, what is it that you prostrate yourself to? Will, you sound a lot like a TWI leader - talking about your good being shown to all while screaming at everyone. We will make sure to curb the dark side of the force in ourselves, young Padawan. Or should I say, you first bro?

Yeah, that's the kind of drawbacks I have with old innie friends - "almost" like a brother if you don't consider the backstabbing, the lying, the judgement, the Pharisee-like behavior. I guess it's like a brother if my brother was on the show "Intervention" and was a meth addict. Or like a brother if my name was Abel and his was Cain.

Hunting with some of these idiots in TWI leadership was a much scarier experience than hunting with Dick Cheney ever would have been. Can you say "laws", "alchohol + firearms = not good idea", "hunters safety", or "your 'spirituality' doesn't give you license to act like a dumbfoot" ???? Geez, many times you'd be safer in the deep South with a jug of moonshine shooting at wildlife from a pickup truck with a floodlight. These are people that a sharpened lollipop stick was a stretch to trust them with, little less loaded firearms.

Common sense here with all the root locales. They were / are in BFE - midwest farm country. Small schools - graduating 50 in NK, ? in Kendleville. If that's someone's background / cup of tea that's one thing, but to bring people in who are used to growing up in larger cities and different environments the culture shock would be horrible. Cow tipping on a Friday night anyone? And of course that's why the drinking problems among the teens in those enviornments were such a large issue.

The way Revelation was handled from my recollection was taught from the perspective of extreme dispensationalism, or "administrations". After the gathering together, then there would be something in the bloodline of Israel that would be "energized", and the book of Revelation would open up to them at that time. The "to whom it is written" concept. This all justified largely avoiding it, although VP would make some vague references to things like the "white throne judgement" and other things like that without actually getting into them. Interestingly enough, still a whole lot of specifics were used out of Revelation to pinpoint the accuracy of JC's birth to a 91 minute period (and unpublished even closer). That's in JCPS. From my perspective, while there is some value in the "administrations" teachings, the extremity of their point of view allowed them to basically ignore whole sections of scriptures unless it was something they wanted to pull out to enforce something (like the absolute nature of tithing, debt, Levitical hierarchies). And the extreme critical view of others' teachings in the gospels (4 Crucified, day JC died, dying proclamation, etc.) highlights that even when they do delve into other areas it is from an egotistical elitist perspective.

This is a common belief among TWI people and it keeps them from honestly evaluating TWI practices - if someone is labeled "malicious", then any of their personal accounts however true they are and accurate they are can be ignored or swept under the table. Also used very commonly is the phrase "there are two sides to every story". Whenever you hear that phrase, you know you are dealing with a liar. People on GS are real people. They are not some bunch of contaminated malcontents. They are citizens of their countries, contributors, hard workers, famly people, and people who love God. Some have turned their back on God due to the abuse in TWI. They all have stories that TWI desperately wants to keep people under their control from hearing. They are stories of spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, control, and manipulation. GS is probably one of the only places on earth that they can collaborate and share information.

Thanks for the first post, and you are a very observant fellow. Your concerns are valid, and the emotions your girlfriend is feeling are normal for those making a clean break with TWI. The family element is very challenging, because even though her parents may be somewhat supportive there will be undercurrents of them acting just a little disappointed in her, or hints of hoping she will see the light, etc. This will be an ongoing thing, and they will not ever view you as a "brother in Christ" in their inner hearts. They will look down on you, treat you as not part of the elite "household". What your girlfriend does not understand is that TWI makes her "friends" behave like Pharisees. Jesus called them a generation of vipers. One interesting characteristic of vipers is that they attach themselves to their victims and hold on very solidly with the purpose being to inject poison. What you will notice is when these "friends" are attached to your GF, you register the results of the poison injected. When they are not attached, no poison. "Shunning" someone who leaves or is not as committed is also a very commonly practiced tool. In spite of this, realizing that your "friends" are not really your friends, and that they are acting like Pharisees is a very challenging thing for anyone, especially someone raised in TWI. Leadership they will deal with will have plenty of help seeing things along the TWI party lines. Standing against them, asking questions, etc. will be fruitless because for TWI they typically don't carry telling the truth in high regard. Well, actually they have whole year themes of "speaking the truth in love", and then tell outright lies when cornered. It's complete hypocrisy. The lying is a pattern all the way up to the top leadership, so changing things will be as fruitful as reforming a politician with no leverage to do so. Still, breaking away is difficult, emotional, and requires great patience in relationships. A genuine Christian brother or sister would be truly blessed that you have found a church that ministers to both of you and provides service, teaching, and a community. A genuine Christian brother or sister would be happy for you. TWI people will never truly be this way. TWI fellowship coordinators have to report the size of their fellowships and recount people once a month, report on what they are doing to win more, and are reviewed in their jobs yearly as to how well they are accomplishing this as well as how well they are running people through classes according to the "potential" for doing so. This evaluation is more involved as you go up the ladder in positions. This infrastructure is autocratic and is concerned with the goals of the organization as opposed to true concerns about the goals of the people. You can think of it like "Amway" for Christianity. One reason I say this is the structure is similar to pyramid marketing schemes. In TWI there are 8 layers of management between a TWI believer and the Board of Director Chairman. 8 layers. You don't see that kind of thing in the Bible anywhere, except maybe in OT Leviticus where Israel had an army, civic government, and a church to run. Each layer protects their fiefdom and falls in line with the next, or is replaced. With 8 layers, demotions and promotions between them are a very effective way to control anyone with grand ideas to change them.

Besides all the information gathering exercise for L1nder and crew: When I got in I was old enough to know better but too young to care. When I got out I was old enough both to know better and to have too little life ahead of me to waste it on destructive cults. :blink:

Lies are the air they breathe. Through information control, they rule. This is why the mark and avoid thing functionally will never go away no matter what terms they use for it. Because one on one, face to face, telling the truth, people awaken to their tactics and the evil in them. They must prevent this at all costs.

Hypocatas-Twilight ?????

Hot d@mn. Me and my belly button lint. Now that's authentic. Authentically scary. I'll stick to my measly existence outside the vacuum.

Yes, that's the biggest challenge of it all. Sometimes I'm tempted to think "well I had a pure heart towards God". And yet the intellectual honesty and recollection of past actions certainly indicate that I was tainted by it as well. I do have some good memories, as I'm sure do all. They were usually times of pure believing and uninfluenced love of God functioning. Can small groups of people being conned still have these genuine times? I think undoubtedly yes, otherwise people would not remain in the group and ignore the con, sweeping things under the carpet. Nothing is ALL good (besides God), or ALL bad. For me there was a tipping point, caused by decades of small things out of place, that resulted in an awakening to the evil. Before that I was blind. I'm left feeling ripped off, with sorrow for what I could have had if I had not believed the con. So all I can do now is focus on some of God's promises like Joel 2:25, that He will restore the years the locusts have eaten.

I liked the "Left Behind" fictional series. Good entertaining reading. Of course I had to get past looking down my nose at them as inferior and inaccurate first (had to smack down the haughty twi thoughts). But the authors have done a whole lot more work in Revelation than I will ever get to. actually that's quite humorous. it really amounted to ignore sections of the Bible and any new work in them and to follow the example of plagiarism set by der fadder in der verd.