Kevlar2000

That, in and of itself, should have been a massive red flag warning us away from this group. Where were all the successful, satisfied grads from all the years Mr. Wierwille had been offering his class? Why weren't they the ones pushing and promoting this bible class? Why weren't they the ones giving the testimonials about how this established a positive attitude in their lives, promoted harmony in their homes, made their lives meaningful, yada yada yada? (And, BTW, where was the lady that got the fire-engine-red drapes that VPW mentioned in PFAL? I would have liked to have heard that story from her personally. If she was so blessed, why didn't she stay with "the ministry"?) "Too Soon Old, and Too Late Smart" - old Amish saying.

I know this has been said before, and maybe I'm just stating the obvious, but... People won't promote what they don't believe in. And The Way hasn't given anyone anything to believe in for a long, long time.

Yes, I remember reading about that in, of all things, Penthouse Magazine (shutup, I was doing biblical research! :D--> ) Of course, we never heard about this in the fellowships - can't promote negatives, dontcha know. Here's a link to the article (don't worry, it's on the People United for Religious Freedom site, not on a porno site): The God Biz

Even if they were "kinder and gentler", I'd have to wonder, "a kinder and gentler WHAT?" They shure ain't no biblical research and teaching ministry. And I wouldn't even think of belonging to a religious organization that had ANY history of abusive and coercive behavior. Which, I guess, lets out most religions. Been there, done that, ate the syllabus during my WOW year 'cause I was so damned hungry! (kidding). :)-->

Thank you exousia for sharing your thoughts on this. I feel much the same way as you in your struggle to understand and come to grips with this issue. I've taken a slightly different path with this, though. You have a lot of verses indicating that Jesus is the Son of God. You have some verses indicating that he is (or is called) God. Could he be both? Maybe? Maybe not? You have equally brilliant persons arguing for either side of the coin. The bible doesn't resolve the issue in and of itself. I've decided that I can believe Jesus is the Son of God with no problems. I've asked him to tell me personally, point-blank, if he is God or not, because I figure that's the only way it can be resolved, at least for me. I'm still waiting for an answer. But I'm content to wait. :)-->

Yeah - this should have been another red flag to me indicating where this sad organization was going. But I knew Charlie Quillen when he was our branch leader in NY. He seemed to be fairly easy-going and mellow, so I wasn't concerned about the "Way police" being like storm troopers or even like real police. I thought they would just keep the grounds safe from the local malcontents and juvenile delinquents. I know better now. :(-->

The reason we were given for the class "donation" was: In the "early days", Wierwille offered the class for free. People would drop in and out of the class sessions. Wierwille figured people would be more committed to staying the entire length of the class if they made a sizable monetary contribution (sort of a "hit 'em where they live" attitude). In retrospect, I have to wonder if the reason was actually the people tended to be older, more indoctrinated (and comfortable) in their religious beliefs, and, because of their life experiences, equipped with a more refined "b_llsH_t meter".

And how much should you tip a cow, anyway? 15%? 20%? Does it make a difference if the cow is raised on an organic farm? If there's a party of 15 or more, is the tip automatically added? If it is, we could all sneak out and leave the dead horses with the bill. Now there's something that can't be beat! :D-->

When they're worn around a big forehead. :D-->

Wasn't this also a belief of Bullenger? I thought I had read this in one of his appendices in the Companion Bible.

Pretty insightful, 3Cents. Thanks. I stuck around a few months after I found out how badly things had gotten at the Rott..er, I mean the Root, because "God had his hand of blessing and protection on The Ministry". I was sure things would straighten themselves out. Instead, "leaders" became more controlling and demanding. Not an atmosphere I could live within. Where VPW was subtly and incrementally controlling (at least to non-Corps), LCM was in-your-face, "my way or the highway" demanding. I think most of the difference in "leadership" style came from VPW's experience with people from the early days ('50s and '60s). Most took the PFAL class and went their merry way, perhaps only occasionally supporting The Way. He knew he couldn't be too controlling, or he would end up alienating even his core followers (which occasionally happened anyway). When the younger kids started following, he figured out he needed a mechanism to introduce a measure of control necessary to continue the necessary support (financial, emotional) without being so demanding that people would automatically see it for what is was - the enrichment of VPW. Hence, the Way Tree teaching and class, the takeover of the Way East and West, requiring a whole slew of VPW doctrinal classes (Renewed Mind, Christian Sex, etc) for his "Advanced" Class. And he probably understood that the young folks, more that the mature adults he had previously dealt with, would defer to his (seemingly) grandfatherly and godly-like authority. LCM, not having VPW's tempering experiences, probably felt exalted, having his own ready-made cult following. He either didn't know or forgot that people will only take so much crap, no matter how indoctrinated they are, and then say "the hell with this" and leave. He didn't try to schmooze people at all, or try to appear gentle and comforting - it was just "root hog or die" all the time. A fun enthusiam for a while, but tiring and buffoonish in the long run. And with CG attempting to wrest control from him, he became even more of a control freak, making odd and obviously wrong pronouncements (The Word is over the world, crossing over into the promised land, all Corps living at the Way locations). It was only a matter of time until his downfall. Now with Ms. Rivenbark, the control is still in place - more subtly, to be sure. The WayGB don't seem to have been disbanded, you need their permission to come on grounds (and 10-to-1 you won't get it), and maybe you can order books from their bookstore. I don't think too many Christian bookstores keep a list of who's qualified to read their books; I don't even think they're worried whether or not you're Christian. The operative word in all three administrations is control - who's in control? Who's in charge? And the Way is set up so the BOD/BOT has the final say in all things doctrinal and practical. A long way from taking a class that, ostensibly, teaches its students how to read and understand the bible for themselves and a mission statement that includes the words "freely avails themselves". It ain't broke - and it ain't fixable. This all, of course, is my opinion and my observations from my association with TWI from 1971 to 1987. Thanks for listening.

Hey, Pat, I wish you wouldn't give out my address like that. ;)-->

Maybe he could run for a political office.

And megan....They may be taking the tapes you're sending back and selling them on eBay. You paid good money for this stuff. If you can recoup some of it by selling it yourself, do it. Don't let TWI profit from you twice.

Thanks, Raf. I didn't want to unwittingly reveal a plot device to folks who haven't seen the movie yet. I really dislike folks doing that to me, so I avoid reading anything that has "spoiler" attached to it (unless I've already seen the show). ;)--> Now, on with the discussion.

(SPOILER) What I don't understand - Why does Dracula call Van Helsing "Gabriel"? I thought his name was Abraham.

Actually, that's kinda what the positions in the picture suggested to me, also. Either that, or they were playing, "Pull my finger...no, pull my finger...no, pull my fingaaaaaaaAAAAAAHHHHHH!" But I thought, "Nobody else in this refined, genteel discussion group would see that perspective." :D-->

I couldn't pay off my spiritual debt to the Way, so I was re-possessed. :)--> After I left the Way, I heard second-hand that I had "a spirit of bitterness". Well, I was pretty ....ed off at the time... I just couldn't stand the evasions, deceptions, half-truths and outright lies anymore. I had had a bellyfull. Possession - The Way leaders liked to throw that one around a lot. Anyone who disagreed with their thoughts, or who did something better than anyone else (and wasn't connected with TWI) was possessed. It became ludicrous. "Man, I don't want to get possessed, so I better not (fill in the blank)!" All I have to say is - I'm glad I'm no longer associated with that outfit. Who needs to worry about that kind of crap?

Interestingly enough, Mark, this news story came out this week: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4693430/ I think whatever point they wanted to make was completely obscured. Maybe they should follow up by crucifying Santa Claus next Christmas, then having everyone in their production scream out loud, "There is no Santa Claus". Great fun, especially for the kids. :(--> --> --> More to the topic, I loved all the candies put out for easter: Chocolate bunnies, jelly beans, gum drops, Cadbury and Mary Sue easter eggs...all of them yum-yummy!

Catcup, Amazing. Simply amazing. And even if we "Joe Believers" didn't spend quite that much money on TWI, we still made a lot of personal and financial decisions based on the "needs" of that little farm in Ohio. Such a graphic example of TWI killing the cash cow because they had a taste for prime rib. Now they're hard-pressed for hamburger (and not even getting a "WOWburger" out of the deal).

Socks, You don't mean to say that this discussion is..."sagging", do you? From one who always thought that they all look great. Really.

Huh...believing for larger breasts.... I wonder what I could ask God to enlarge... "Oh Lord, we beseech thee......." HEY! IT'S WORKING! :D--> LOL

I tend to think if Mel's primary objective for making this movie had been profit, the movie he would have made would have been "Jesus vs. The Powerpuff Girls". Or "Jesus vs. Freddy Krueger - Nightmare on The Streets Paved With Gold, Volume One". Or "Lethal Jesus".

Who gets to decide the validity of the "present truth"? You? Me? Whoever is interred..um, I mean installed as the president of a minor religous organization? The Chief Apostle and Head Prophet of the storefront Church of the Bleeding Knuckles and Shoe Repair? And the most wonderful thing of all - It doesn't have to be based on anything! "God told me the Word is over the World!" "God told me there are too many homos in our organization!" "God told me to close the door of this open-door ministry!" "God told me how you should bless me, babeee! A-hehhh-hehhh-hehhhhhhh!" Present truth - an invitation to insanity.

Why? Did he forget your name? :D--> I have no opinion on whether or not VF was "godly" in not following Martindale. Or whether it was "godly" to follow Geer. When I left, I didn't follow any of them. And I'm glad I didn't. I don't see where either of them were on a path that would lead folks into a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ (not that I'm any great shakes, but...). I really don't think it would have made a difference if folks pledged their "loyalty" to Martindale. He wasn't fit to administer that organization, period. He wasn't taking advice or reproof. And since only the other BOT(D) could remove him, why would he care?