Rocky

Hey LG, I'll echo what many of the GSC friends here have said... I'm very thankful to have had you share of your insights and now of your self. Being a single dad myself, beside your clear headed sharing on political topics, I certainly admire you for the daughter who will be your living legacy. Indeed, for her sake and for grandchildren to come, write, write, write not just of your memories and experiences, but your hopes and dreams, and your insights. The record of your heart and mind will live on -- leaving Lisa thankful everyday. Thanks.

I respect your "I" statement and no problem on having said all you'd like to.

Disagreement vs denial? I would agree with you (to disagree) on that point, except that your posts taking issue with the particular posts, IMO, can reasonably be characterized as denial. And obviously, as to whether the USA is or is not a Christian nation, we do agree. Do we clearly have a Christian heritage? In general (and because I'm not familiar with the role of Christianity in the Articles of Confederation and the time during which the country was under the Articles) I do believe that there are people denying that we have such a heritage. I agree with rhino that Islam certainly can be a part of the overall discussion on this thread. Yet, I still believe that you used Islam in these particular posts, to compare/contrast with Christianity as a way to minimize an obvious reality. What would come to play in the event fundamentalist/rightwing conservative Christians in the USA got the kind of country they desire is enough to make one shudder.

YOU're the one who was comparing, not ME. The thread topic is "America's Christian Heritage." A poster posed the question of what might happen if the Christian Right got what it wanted... theocracy, etc. He suggested what he believed to be a reasonably likely scenario. You THEN denied it as -- a figment of the person's imagination; and THEN compared it to radical Islam as a device to further your denial of the point/idea he brought up. PERIOD. I then provided references to very recent AND relevant news to show that his hypothesis was NOT some far off figment of an active or paranoid imagination. You then AGAIN compared it to radical Islam as a device to ascribe insignificance to the point. This ALL adds up to only one thing. You are in denial about the issue. Period. The hypothetical scenario the other poster brought up goes DIRECTLY to the thesis: America is NOT, and NEVER has been a so-called Christian nation. The ramifications, in the hypothetical scenario of America having been established as a Christian nation, and/or if it were to become such a theocracy in our time are genuinely so terrible and hideous that we each should dare to get honest about how bad it could have been/would be. This has NOTHING to do with your ridiculous comparison/contrast with Islam. Islam, and all variations thereof, are completely not relevant to this discussion.

Excuuuuuuuuuuuse me. I believe the correct expression is "Holy CRAP!" (in remembrance of the late Peter Boyle, aka Frank Barone).

And don't forget Thomas Paine. Without his writings, we might never have had an American Revolution. His Common Sense lit the fuse, as it were... put another way, though there was plenty of grumbling about the tyranny of King George, the Colonies did not galvanize to undertake the founding of this new nation until Paine lit a fire under their collective a$$es. AND, Paine was persecuted by Christian churches of all flavors after his essay The Age of Reason was published. This pamphlet essentially wiped out the hold churches and preachers had on the masses by way of superstition. Look it up. Google "Thomas Paine." The enmity toward him was so deep and long lasting that one time I mentioned something about the guy that said "Give me liberty, or give me death" -- Patrick Henry, in front of Wierwille. I had no idea who Paine was at that time. But Wierwille practically had a cow, doing a double take and asking me again who I had mentioned. It took me more than 20 years to realize he was thinking of Paine... Paine was considered a heretic of the highest order for that particular essay.... http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...ason/intro.html

And THAT (your comment, quoted above) is what I call DENIAL. First you accuse one person of making it up. Then, when presented with tangible evidence that "Christians" when given "what they are asking for" (not all of them, but get honest Evan, Christians, especially fundamentalists -- are SHEEP -- they'll do what their pastor suggests they do) will be violent... you rationalize it away. Fundamentalist Christianity will be NO less dangerous, if given too much of a place in society, as radical Islam. Surely you see it already -- by "virtue" of the radical attacks on abortion providers? Unless you block it out of your awareness because it will cause psychological pain. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (engineer) to figure out the sociological implications of such a scenario. But it DOES take someone willing to face potential anxiety producing truth.

Does he now? Making that part up? I DOUBT IT! You haven't seen this item (a USA TODAY editorial on something being marketed that sounds eerily like just such a scenario as Bramble imagined) yet? http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/12/post_39.html AND This news report on it. http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/fun.games/12/...ntorversy.reut/ Hysterical? I don't think so. Google "video game"+Christian and look for news on that search.

I'm pretty sure you meant that either tongue-in-cheek or as sarcasm, but it's still a most insane idea.

Amen and Amen! Brilliant rhetorical device! Eloquently stated. And besides that, though someone might be able to find isolated verses here or there to so justify, from the perspective of what it appears God (and the writers) intended to convey, I don't believe it can be done. Please sir, would you kindly provide some of the evidence of which you write?

Am I forbidding... I have, on several occassions/posts, specifically addressed this same question. The answer is the same today as it was before. NO. I'm not even thinking in those terms. Indeed you will decided if the presentation is credible. All I did, and all I DO when I point out something like that is just that --- call attention to it. I did not even suggest he should have left that source out of the post. How many times will I have to address this same question? I guess as many times as someone infers (wrongly, btw) that I am suggesting a source should be excluded and comments on it. Now, as to why I saw bias (berean's not rhino's in this case) is because I understand that the Founding Fathers were NOT so emphatically Christian. Indeed, as rhino pointed out, some considered themselves deist. Worry not, Evan, I'm EMPHATICALLY NOT calling for ANYone to exclude sources. However, I might take your comment as suggesting that I not call attention to the bias. I do NOT take it that way, because even if I did, I don't see myself being shy about commenting on a source.

Ah... one of my pet peeves. Good topic. I don't know how many times I've heard "I'm sorry YOU feel that way." Now, as to the opening post, the way I look at it is that if the person "apologizing" is trying to say he recognizes that his words or actions are what the problem is, then I accept it. I believe the statement, "I apologize if I offended you," is such that it does recognize the responsibility for the offense is with the person giving the apologizing. HOWEVER -- when someone tries to tell me they are sorry for something THEY are NOT responsible for -- that is inherently insincere and disingenuous. Therefore, I generally reply something like "don't apologize for my feelings, apologize instead for your actions/words." I have found that there are plenty of people who don't "get it." By that, I mean that they don't understand what they just did/said by trying to apologize for something they aren't responsible for. Some do understand and intend their insincerity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rousseau Of course, America's economic heritage traces to Adam Smith and his Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations.

Absolutely NOT! Indeed, the Founding Fathers believed in GOD. However, knowing the evils of religious persecution, they specifically established a SECULAR nation. And when the need for a Bill of Rights was recognized and acted upon, what is the FIRST thing that Bill of Rights declared? Does ANYone really believe the First Amendment allows for religious persecution to be condoned? http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about....=about_firstamd Further, does anyone have any difficulty recognizing the bias inherent in the writings of bereanpublishers.com ? The "underpinning" or conceptual (philosophical) foundation of America lies in the writings of John Locke and Jean Jacques Rousseau. In terms of HISTORY, the new nation borrowed from the Greek republic/democracy. Had they been thinking in terms of a Christian nation, we'd have seen far more intense and far earlier religious persecution than the right-wing Christian fundementalists are responsible for today. OTOH, my hunch is that there's been plenty of religious persecution in the USA from the beginning. But what is done in contemporary America would be far more brazen and unapologetic than it already is. Point of interest -- the uproar caused by a Congressman, newly elected last month, wanting to take the oath of office with a copy of the quran, INSTEAD of the bible. That Congressman has already faced tremendous amounts of hate for that single declaration.

Actually, from SimonZ's house, Piestewa Peak is closer and a more direct line of sight. Piestewa Peak was formerly named Squaw Peak. Camelback Mountain would be viewable from Simon's house except for lots of houses and trees in between.

Thankfully, I've not had any friends or relatives die recently (I'm in my early 50s). However, back about 14 years ago, the first time in my life I had lost anyone close, there were six or so in less than a year. The closest was my brother, in his mid-30s, died suddenly due to heart disease. His may have been hastened by tobacco and drug abuse. He had been a smoker for more than 20 years by then. I've lost other family members, not as close as my brother, due to cancer, various types... prostate, breast, thyroid, maybe others. My dad made it to 66, but his heart gave out. My mother's too ornery to die... even though she's had significant health issues all of her adult life. She has not dealt with cancer however.... anyway. I'm working on health issues and hope to make it to the same age as the guy that did a lot of research on vitamin C... he was 93 when he died due to prostate cancer.

Chestnuts must be roasting on an open fire in a lot of places this week... I hope ever one's all warm and toasty in the company of those you love! :)

With all this money being tossed about so "freely" it makes one wonder what tickets are going to cost in the near future... and whether the "small market" teams will have a snowball's chance in Phoenix in July...

WHAT A HOOT! That video is hilarious!!!! Thanks Dave

Well, Eagle, at least Amazon.com has it in stock!

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0942833 Deadpan comedian Steven Wright was born this day (Dec 6) in 1955. Many of you may know of him... among his trademark style jokes... "I had some eyeglasses. I was walking down the street when suddenly the prescription ran out." "A lot of people are afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." I looked him up on IMDB.com after hearing someone on TV mention that today was his b'day. On IMDB.com's bio page for him, I read several of his jokes... many of which I had heard before... I haven't laughed so hard in eons.... ALSO... A dear friend of mine from about 26 years ago, another former wayfer, former waycorpse member (don't remember which number, but it was sometime after the 9th) I believe had a birthday today... http://www.danstevens.net He's now a blues musician touring regularly in the NE USA...

And I found out a couple of weeks ago that one of my doctors at the VA in Phoenix grew up near Grand Lake St. Mary's... which is not far from New Knoxville... she's younger than I am... but she's familiar with twi, but just barely. She also went to medical school in Toledo. I think she mentioned having seen billboard(s) on Hwy 29.

Hey hey happy happy dear Ex10! Sounds like you're loved at home as well as here at the ol' GSC! Glad it's a good one for you and yurs...

I'm good...(or should I say, I'm doing well?) mornings are pretty cold (high 30s F ;) ), but no wind today and mid 70s this afternoon... going to the gym shortly, spent the morning with my kids... life's good. :)

I gotta admit that I more or less agree with Mr. stRange on that on a practical level. However, from a more romantic (not sexual romantic, but romantic world view) view, it's inevitable for mankind to be exploring the world(s) beyond. Think about how much society and technology have changed since we were born; since we were young kids; since we were in high school; since we've been out of the cult... and even in the last couple of years... I obviously don't care about whether any particular family makes it out of the "comfort" of mother earth into the wild black yonder of outer space to explore, colonize and cause the human species to survive and (hopefully) thrive elsewhere in our unimaginably vast universe. It's just probably not feasible to expect public opinion to change to the degree necessary to halt such exploration.