Hope R.

This was a perfectly good thread that Uncle Hairy started. It had some terrific posts, great examples the topic at hand. Then there were gut-wrenching incidents to confirm that the topic was not only relevant, but proven to be truthful. Then it became all about Oldies. He made one stupid, mindless, heartless, uncaring, misogynistic, devilish post (more adjectives are needed, but not enough space is allowed). This threw off the whole point that was started in this thread. "TWI taught us to be abusers". Think about what that proves! If Oldies hadn't been taught to be an abuser, he might have some compassion and empathy for imbus and what she has been through. He was obviously taught abuse somewhere along the way, or he wouldn't be so unyielding in his opinions. Abusers have a great capacity for self deception and denial. Abusers think that their victims deserved their abuse. Abusers make themselves victims by blaming others -(..."even the corps girl who seduced me..."). Abusers lack awarenes of others' personal boundaries. Abusers feel no remorse even after they recognize abusive episodes. Abusers will never admit they have made mistakes. Abusers accept no blame for failures. There are more - too many to type. Just google "abusers characteristics". Oldies has done what another poster does with threads that criticize TWI too much for their taste - he has made the topic revolve around him. He will not change his mind about what he believes short of handwriting on the wall. No matter how it is said, no matter how much people try to reason with him - he won't believe what all of us have been trying to relate to him. Why? Because he was taught how to abuse others from TWI, just like many of us were. He just doesn't see it, and probably never will. No reply is necessary, Oldies. I already know what you are going to say - it's really simple to figure out.

Thanks to all - next year it's the big 5-0! Eek!! Didn't we used to say "never trust anyone over the age of 30" when we were all hippies? Oh well - what did we know anyway???

No, Oldies, you don't get it at all. Perhaps you need to take a break from GS for a while. Just a suggestion, mind you. Maybe you and Mike could get together and start your own ministry while you're at it - or at least your own website. Look up "misogynist" in the dictionary. Your picture is there. (((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))

Someone please help me with the direct quote - but LCM said something like - he could run any corporation in America better than someone who had an MBA.

Hmmmm - Tommy - interesting observation - I'll have to catch it on Sat. night just to see that part! I think Jane's going to hang around a bit - and I think, if they take the history seriously, she'll remain a major character in the show for a while. The real Calamity Jane was a wonderful woman, very fierce, but very caring. I'm looking forward to the depiction of some of the things she did while in Deadwood. I hope they include them.

You're abso-frikkin-lutely right. Bullseye! That pretty much clears it up as far as the Sixth goes. Thanks. I feel better now....

Tommy Strangelove - you gawt eet!!! You win the award for having an indepth Grease Spot peception and awareness!!! Your interpretation is flawless - you figured out the literal translation according to usage in the household of The Cafe!!! And I'm sure a few guys did get "lucky" using that line on some of the more naive Corps girls. And remember, the Sickth Corps was the first Corps that had more than 80 people in it - there were - 350+ to start off with. (Alfa knows the exact number)! We were the first Corps to be away from HQ's. Our "elder" Corps - the 4th - was at HQ's as well - so we had to police ourselves. We were the first, and maybe only Corps to have an average age of 22 (or 23?) - pretty durn young. I was 20 when I went in, but there were a few 18 year olds and one who graduated HS early to go in at 17. We didn't have too many folks who were over 30. I can't think of too many who were that old! Heck, LCM turned 27 in November of our first year in-rez. And about 1/2 of the 6th Corps had only been involved with TWI for 3 years - or less! They took PFAL, went to the Rock, went WOW and went right in the Corps! That's 200+ people! Because Emporia was big, and they had to fill those beds and get that labor-pool going, they allowed people in the Corps that weren't even Advanced Class grads. Some took it for the first time that May! What does that mean? There was a great level of immaturity experientially, emotionally and spiritually - and very little supervision. VP first made LCM the Corps coordinator when the 5th Corps was in-rez. And there were only about 75-80 people in that group. This was a whole new gig for everyone. So anything that was spread around got spread around fast! Maybe, and I'm saying maybe most people who heard it on the field believe it came from a 6th Corps teaching because we had so many people out on the field during our interim year and after we graduated. That's why Goey and a lot of people heard that particular teaching in the late 70's - we graduated in 1978. I'm not making excuses - just providing a bit of Sickth Corps history that I wish Alfa, Ev and Catcup can and will add to. I think it gives a broader understanding of why people might believe we heard it from a podium. We didn't.

Goey - I'm with Catcup, too. I was in the Corps with her. No one at any kind of meeting, even the seperate womens/mens times, taught that adultery was okay. Sure, some of the guys used that Romans stuff to try to get (ahem) their needs met (tongue is in cheek). But that was all that I ever heard - and it wasn't a teaching! It was a line! (hey baby, wanna see my Corps notes? I've got them up on the roof of Kenyon Hall!). I'm not saying it wasn't spread around, I'm not saying it wasn't practiced - but it was never a teaching! And it wasn't spread around as if it were doctrine either. If any women got that kind of message, it was likely that it was for "recruiting" purposes. Throw that Romans 14 verse at them and see how they react. If it makes sense to them, you've probably got a hot prospect! And for once I agree with oldies. I think the majority of the people on the field - the rank and file of TWI, thought adultary was never the right thing to do and that's what TWI believed and taught. I was in TWI when LCM's sexual misconduct was brought to light. We had big ol' branch meetings about it. Our BC's and LC's ran them in order to fend off any rebellion and skirt the issues (IMO). In our area - most people were disgusted, angry, hurt, and stunned. I don't know anyone who thought what LCM did was okay or had any scripture to back it up. It was inner circle stuff. And I'll bet money that the great majority of the Corps didn't know about what was going on. I didn't. Oh, I knew people were messing around - I wasn't that naive -- but it was single people, not married people. And most of them were engaged! I'm not making excuses for what happened. I'm just saying that most of us didn't turn our backs on what was going on - we just simply didn't know what was going on.

UH, great post. You too Socks! It's so funny - but since this thread started, my mind went back to the "broken fellowship" vs. "sin" teaching. Broken fellowship was simply "missing the mark", remember that one? The illustration I remember being taught was that it was like an arrow falling short of a bullseye. It was no big deal. You just pulled the arrow out (by asking God's forgiveness) and shot at the target again. NO repentance. NO sin- consciousness, just go skipping along because God has forgiven you! I once heard a great teaching on that chapter in 2nd Corinthians about "godly sorrow". I think it was Naomi T. or Sunny S. who taught it at some women's advance in NY in the early 70's. It really contradicted what was taught about that whole "missing the mark" bs. I don't recall ever hearing something like that being taught again in a large meeting. But it was something UH wrote that brought it back to my memory... I think that a few people might have figured that out early on, but of course, it was probably stifled by those who were not willing to give up their "broken fellowship" and drive-by forgiveness.

Read Romans 13:8 through 14:23. Those are the verses that were used to explain "if you can handle it, it's okay" philosophy. Actually, the way I heard it was "it's okay as long as you don't condemn yourself!!! When I first heard this, I had a funny feeling that it was wrong, that whoever was promoting it was “stretching the truth”. So I studied it. I came to the obvious conclusion that the chapters that were quoted weren’t referring to sex, drugs and rock and roll at all – the context is the Jewish Law. Here’s my take on it – sorry if it’s long and boring – In the first few verses, Paul exhorts the Roman Christians not to judge the newer converts to Christianity: Nothing about sex so far… Next – Paul tells them not to freak out if there are people who still observe certain days and times: So far, we’re talking about dietary laws and the law regarding what day to observe the Sabbath. No sex yet – but here’s where the little inkling of idea starts. At the end of v.5 the sentence “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” got the ball rolling – see it’s YOUR OWN feelings, YOUR OWN thoughts in which you have to be convinced. But he’s still not talking about sex…. or is he?????? Then he writes a few verses about how we don’t live for ourselves, but for the Lord. He then continues the reproof in v. 10 - 13: Geez – there’s still no sex in this forumula! But let’s go on… Here’s the first verse that can be used to support: “as long as you can handle it…” Okay – so if nothing is unclean of itself, and you just think it’s unclean – then it becomes unclean to you. So we’ll just take the other side of the verse that isn’t stated – that if you think something is clean, even if it’s not to someone else – well too bad for them, but it’s okay for you because you can handle it! Now we got the “lock-box” thrown in for good measure: See now, if your brother knows what is going on, and he or she can’t handle it – it will just hurt their walk – you’d be doing him harm to tell him the kind of stuff you have done when he thinks it’s just awful. So don’t tell him! Don’t let him know anything! Keep it to yourself, in your “lock-box”. That way, no one will talk behind your back and you won’t get in trouble! But wait! That’s not the context! That’s NOT what it’s saying! Remember – the topic is really meat, drink, observing days. Nothing else is on the list! So Paul continues, and anyone with half a brain can see that he’s not talking about “if you can handle it – it’s okay”. If you do THOSE things – you’re doing the things that will show that you love your fellow man! But wait – what happened to the sex part – I’m sure it’s there somewhere – wait – I think I found it! (Offence = proskomma a stumbling block. Something that is propelled by sin.) ALL THINGS ARE INDEED PURE! But if you can’t handle it – it’s EVIL! So don’t do anything that might be offensive in front of anyone because it’ll cause them to stumble and they’ll probably break their fellowship with God because of it! And here it is folks! The verse to end all verses – the coup de gr? so to speak. This is the verse that was quoted to me to convince me that as long as a person doesn’t condemn themselves in whatever act they commit – it’s not sin! There it is in black and white. If you don’t condemn yourself for something you’ve allowed to occur in your life – then you will be HAPPY! It’s all good! Oh – wait a sec. .. that means I can take a gun and blow your head off, and if I don’t condemn myself for it, if I’m feelin’ groovy – THEN IT’S OKAY! Well – if you follow that logic it is! And then there’s the final verse in the chapter: If you do something and you doubt yourself then you’re not believing – you’re condemning yourself and the CONDEMNATION IS THE SIN NOT THE ACT ITSELF!!! Dontcha see it peepul??? If you don't condemn yourself - then you're okay - you haven't sinned! Unreal. The context is eating and drinking and observation of the Sabbath day. That’s it. We don’t condemn anyone who eats meat if we’re a vegetarian. We don’t look down on anyone who won’t have a glass of wine because they’re an alcoholic. We’re not to judge them. And we don’t have a roast beef sandwich and a beer in front of them because it might make them stop believing all together. We use discretion and common courtesy. It’s sorta like asking someone you’re eating lunch with “do you mind if I smoke?” If they say no, you won’t light up in front of them, you’ll step outside! In my own interpretive view – that’s really all that Romans 14 is about – Loving God and loving your neighbor enough not to do anything that would hurt them in any way. Read the first few verses of Chapter 15 - it continues on and further defines the previous chapter. Apologies for the long-windedness of this post.

Goey - I'm not one to split hairs - but that's what UH said - it was taught to us. It wasn't. It was spread around by the Corps members themselves - at least that's the way I heard it. I remember talking about it in the dorm among ourselves, but that's about it. I don't know who got the ball rolling or who came up with that particular interpretation of Romans, but I know it wasn't formally taught. I abolutely agree with 99.999% of what Uncle Hairy said, except for that one little point. I just wanted to set the record straight. T-t-t-t-that's all folks!

Uncle Hairy - were you in the 6th Corps? I was -- and don't recall that teaching at all. I do recall some of the 6th Corps guys quoting some verses to some of the 6th Corps girls in Romans that says it isn't sin if you don't condemn yourself. But there was never any formal, or informal teaching that I attended where "it's okay if you can handle it" was the subject - doctrinal or otherwise. As a matter of fact, I recall hearing that Romans stuff when I was in the line waiting to go into lunch - but never anywhere else. Alfa, Catcup, Geek, Evan? I'm sure a couple of you have better memories than I do.

SOCKS! ROTFLMAO!!!! Absolutely perfect! Be careful, someone might plagiarize it!!! :D--> ;)-->

Lifted - I wasn't referring only to Jonny in my post. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever discussed this before. He may have sparked the thought, but he wasn't the object of it!

I've had this discussion with a few people I've met on GS, so I'll add it to this thread and in no way mean to de-rail it... Isn't it posssible, if not probable, that some of the good things we learned in the Way Corps couldn't and/or wouldn't have been learned elsewhere? If I had gone to college, or into the Peace Corps, or gotten a job in the mail room at IBM or some other large company - wouldn't I have learned how to study, help others and work hard? Perhaps I could have learned those things quicker had I not gone into the Corps and done something else. We can play "what if" forever - but the fact is that the Corps program doesn't hold a patent on the benefits some of us may have received from it. I could have taken a public speaking course at a community college and gotten credit for it! Or I could even have taken the Dale Carnegie class directly from that company. Would I have learned many of the good things I picked up in-rez? I honestly believe I would have. I've met so many people my age who never heard of TWI who have worked hard to get where they are. They're moral and ethical and smart, too. Many of them have to travel 3 or 4 days a week as part of their jobs. Some have been transferred because of changes in the companies they work for. In the world today, that's not uncommon - and people have learned to be flexible if they want to keep their jobs. And what about the military? That's another extreme, I guess. But I think some of the people I met in-rez would have been better off doing 4 years in uniform instead of 4 years in the Way Corps. At least they'd have GI benefits and some college tuition to look forward to instead of not being qualified to do much of anything. Another point I just thought of is that, other than washing windows, did anyone out there learn a skill or a trade in the Corps they're using today to earn a living? Most of the folks I knew with skills and abilities in-rez had them before they went into the program. Jonny - it didn't totally suck for me - but I'm not going to laud the program as if it was something so unique that I couldn't have gained the knowledge and skills elsewhere. Living means learning if one is willing to learn. I refuse to regret those years, but won't fool myself into thinking that there was no other way to get where I am today without having gone through the Corps. (Not bitter - just trying to look through glasses other than my usual rose colored ones).

Painted by Michelangelo in 1509-1510 - on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. There are several renaissance works of art that depict the serpent as a woman or a child-like cherub. All I did was google some key words and found a bunch of paintings and articles regarding the reasons why artists gave the serpent woman-like attributes. NONE of them even mildly suggest that there was a lesbian relationship between the serpent and Eve, or even a heterosexual one with Adam. IMO, he just chose to ignore all the articles written by several art history experts and made it symbolize exactly what he wanted it to mean.

diazbro - it was suggested that all the students write a note to ^rev-er-end-^mar-tin-dale to thank him so much for the wonderful prevailing truth taught in the Way of Abundance and Power class that enables us to truly be disciples so we can cross over the bridge to the promised land of the prevailing word in the household and be valient for the truth. (ego stroke... ego stroke... ego stroke...) Honestly though, I wonder if he suggested to the class instructors that those letters be written, or did the on-the-field gestapo come up with that one? I may sound dumb, but LCM might not have known it was a suggestion, which, according to him and the MOG before him, is tantamount to an order! Maybe the brown-nosers were having a contest to see who could send in the most "bless" notes after each class. If it was his idea, then he obviously didn't get it. Didn't he realize that no one was going to criticize him or his teachings in a negative manner? Didn't he understand that people were being forced to write those notes to keep in the good graces of whomever their leaders were? Is he really that dumb?(rhetorical - no need to answer).

The actor who plays Swearengen is Ian McShane. He looked so familiar to me, but I still couldn't place where I'd seen him before. Then I googled his filmography. Turns out he's been in a lot of movies and series I've seen over the years, but never as a main character (at least in the ones I've seen). He reminds me of a cross between Al Pacino and Daniel Hedaya. I went to the HBO site for "Deadwood" and there are some interesting facts. Seems that all these characters were given a "background" so they could develop their roles better. I don't know if we'll ever hear about them on the series.(Ian McShane Interview) I'm hoping the language cleans itself up - not because it offends me (which some of it does), but I find it a big distraction to the dialog.

Exie - here's what I'd probably do in your shoes... Go to Google Images and find the pics of the two things you need. Print them out. Go to Kinko's and have them enlarged if you can't make them big enough (or get some 11x14 paper to use with your color printer). Mount them on heavy cardboard and cut them out with an Exacto knife. Make picture frame type stands for the back of them with the rest of the cardboard so they can stand up and - voila!

First time out - 1974 - to San Antonio, Texas. I still consider it a great town. It was one of those first "Outreach Cities" - 7 families of four - with a 4th Corps person as the Branch Coor. It was the first time there was an interim year for the Corps - up until then, it had been 2 years straight through. We had 2 apartments, too, Catcup. Couldn't find a place that would rent to us together. I worked on the Riverwalk with other WOW's from other families. My WOW Family coordinator and I hated each other. It was the year door-to-door witnessing started. I refused to go. I got kicked off the field in March. My interim year I was a WOW2 in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, and Goey, I disagree, Pine Bluff is the sphincter of the world. WOW 2 was sort of an experiment that year. It was made up of those who had been WOW the year before who either wanted to go out again to another area, or who wanted to stay in the same city they were in and be more successful. My WOW sisters were actually 2 sisters (who later went into the 9th Corps). One had been in PB the year before and one had been WOW somewhere else. The guy in my family had been in PB the year before. You could 30 hours a week if you wanted to and didn't have to witness 40 hours a week! So that part was relatively easy. So - when I got there, I had a house, furniture, linens, a kitchen full of dishes and even food waiting for me because 2 of them lived there already and didn't have to pack up their stuff to leave for the Rock. I also received a check for $210 a month because my Corps Sponsorship was still coming in - it was called "Student Aid" at the time. So I was living large! So that was a good year. I only ran one very pitiful class. The LC and I were the only 2 Corps in the state and we became very close friends. I still hear from him and consider a brother. So even though the town was horrible, and the sisters constantly fought (as sisters will do) and they guy kept to himself, it could have been worse. (sorry for the epistle...)

My first year was intense - a good kind of intense. I met the most wonderful people, and still keep in touch with a few of them! ;)--> Oh, there were some bad times - like when Sunny left - that sucked. But for the most part - I had a really good experience that year. My last year was hell on earth with Gerald W. (except for 4 months I spent in Rome City - which wasn't exactly what would pass for Corps Training - Del Duncan was our Corps Coordinator - need I say more?). I think because the Sickth Corps had no "elder" corps, we got away with more stuff than some of the latter Corps' did. During Pat S**nders pseudo English class, I used to sit in the back row with Chris Cunn*****m reading New York Magazine from cover to cover (I kept my subscription running and never was asked about it). I didn't run. I put my sweats on - made like I was heading for the track, and went up the back stairs of the back stage area of Kenyon and made a pot of coffee before heading back to the dorm. I filled out my CO3 form (no, my nose didn't grow), and that was that. I will say that I just about died when we did those group "fun runs"! I think Way Prod might have had a slight advantage (once we were "allowed" to play). I never had to go on that stupid kill-the-chicken-camping-trip. We were sent out in pairs to visit the WOW's in Kansas and Oklahoma and teach and perform that week instead. Poor me! The Sickth Corps didn't have the privilege of going on LEAD. Our years were stuck between the end of TFI and the beginning of the LEAD program. I think it started up during the last year of the 7th Corps. I have great stories to tell - went places I never would have gone - and met people I never would have the pleasure (for the most part) to know. Sure, there were morons and hard-@sses, too. But I didn't bother with them - stayed out of their way and kept myself off their radar. Things changed later on - it got more strict and rigorous. I think the 10th might have been the year that really got heavy. When did the midnight curfew start? And the no smoking thingy? Anyway - my hindsight usually has rose-colored glasses attached. I think I choose to forget the really awful stuff that happened - maybe because the good stuff happened more often. Alfakat - Evan - Catcup - and you Sickth Corpse lurkers (you know who you are!) - I LOVE YOU!

hmmmm - you got me thinking... Maybe those green things really are robes and we just didn't realize it. Green is TWI's official color - maybe those are just their regular uniforms. Socks - Don said that???? Amazing - like he looked so good!

Socksy - I think it costs $50. Oaksie - did grads get to take it for free the first time? I don't remember if I paid for it or not. Other info: - 12 Sessions - 3 weeks - 2 hours per session - Syllabus broken down into segments, not sessions - so there are 24 segments. - Syllabus is almost word for word (except the screaming) and is 167 pages long and includes 3 appendices, one of them titled: "Not Ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: The Sin of Homosexuality". Verse, context & used before, etc. are in segment 5. Formed - made - created in segment 10. Lesbian Eve is taught in segment 11. The principle of believing is taught in segment 12. Tongues happens in segment 20 - so that would be session 10. Segment 24 - the last segment, is titled "Walking in Fellowship". Romans 1 is taught in detail in that last segment. Hope this helps -

Sadie - did you take the class on video or live? I took it twice as well and LCM ranted and raved more than once about those who didn't agree with him - which included the students. As far as the days of Peleg are concerned - google it - apparently LCM didn't come up with that one himself. Of course, credit wasn't given to anyone else either. Oakspear said: "Why would a new person want to subject themself to that? For a "foundational" class.....?" I couldn't agree more. I remember when I took it I wondered how a new person would react to the teachings. PFAL might have been wrong, but at least it was "easy to be entreated". We may have been under VP's spell - but we all felt pretty durn good while sitting through the class for the first time - we were "blessed". The WAP class? Yikes! If I were a newbie, with half a brain, I'd be dazed and confused about half the teachings, not to mention LCM's tirades. Even the old stuff like administrations, body, soul & spirit and "the God-breathed word" were taken apart and made more complicated than my attention span was willing to endure. Then there was a teaching about the pyramids, which I never bothered to check out because it was so not worth looking into, IMO. It was stuff from Bullinger - and I don't think LCM even understood it. But when he taught the original sin was lesbian sex - that just about floored me. I wondered about the grads who were sitting in that class along with me and what they thought. Did they actually believe that? Of course, at the time, you didn't dare question the MOG or his teachings - at least not in my area (don't know about LLP's).

Where do we begin? Those of us who sat through that class a few times still don't get half the stuff LCM was teaching. And it wasn't because he was more spiritual than the rest of us... IMO - it was because IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE! He started it off pretty normally - basic scriptures, John 14:6, 10:10, etc. About 20 minutes into it - he's screaming that if you don't like what he's saying you can leave - GO TO CHURCH! Shortly after that - maybe session 2 - he goes into "the deep" - teaching that the universe is encased in a womb-like saltwater solution. That is "the deep". That's where the debbil took his 1/3 of the angels and that's where he hangs out when he's not busy attacking TWI. He goes into Pangaea - which is a term used for the one superconinent that divided into the land masses and continents of today. While this theory is valid, LCM teaches that the continents were split "in the days of Peleg" (he gets this from Genesis 10:25)! Geologically - it took MILLIONS and MILLIONS of years for the the continental drift to occur - yet LCM says that the bible teaches that it happened in a few years - "... for in his days was the earth divided". Someone else please elaborate more - I'm just sitting here stunned that I actually TOOK this class and didn't SCREAM OUT LOUD when this session ended...