Hope R.

(This is going to be long)... I just re-read the TWI 1, 2 and 3 thread over for the first time in a few years and was totally blown away by the insight from some of the “old-timers” who posted there. Many of you who post and read GS got out of TWI sometime before or during that 3 year transitional period between 1986 (CG’s reading of POP), until 1989 (LCM out of the “fog). Most of you didn’t hang around for LCM’s reign of terror. I’ve had various discussions with people who stuck around and those who got out earlier – and I’ve come to the conclusion that those of you who got out in the 80’s really have no idea of how bad TWI 3 became. I’m not saying “my fish is bigger than your fish” at all. I’m just saying that if you weren’t there, you can’t know (sort of like when we try to explain things to NBW people – they can get an idea, but no way can they understand what we’ve been through). I think some people tend to forget that LCM was the leader of TWI for 15+ years – more time than most of us had under VPW’s Mogship. Much of the discussion on GS is regarding VP – his teachings, his plagiarism, his sexual misconduct and more. But what about Craig? Those people who are still in today were basically told that everything from TWI 1 was an “old wineskin” and that LCM’s teachings were the “present truth”. No one that I know of at HQ’s has stated otherwise. They still follow his teachings in classes and books. His name may be unspoken, but his words aren’t. When I was still involved and started looking on the internet, the stuff I saw about TWI was either old stories about the Corps’ gun training in Emporia or stuff about VP’s plagiarism. To me, it was ancient history. None of it really surprised me – people had been telling those stories for years. I knew things in TWI were awful and getting worse and I just wanted some kind of validation – to hear it from another source. I wanted insight on what was happening in the present – things like Paul A. had in the Waydale documents section. I believe we still have a “job” to do in exposing the evils of the more recent years of TWI 3 (LCM) and 4(RFR), especially to those who may be reading who are still in. (Harve? Mr. Linder? Gary?). I’m not saying that the topics about the early days are irrelevant – just that lately we’ve pretty much become a TWI 1 discussion forum. I would like to ask anyone to share the experiences they had in TWI 3 & 4 on this thread. I borrowed the outline of Oakspear’s post on the TWI 1,2 & 3 thread for chronology – but added some lenghtly details (apologies to Oaksie!) TWI 2 1985- VP dies Leaders start questioning LCM’s ability to lead One year later – Geer reads POP and all hell breaks loose. Geer gets control of the BOT Martindale goes into his “fog years” Between 1986 & 1989 – 4/5ths of the leadership leaves, many form off-shoots. TWI 2 ends with CG running rampant on LCM and the BOT. TWI 3 (IMO this is where all the garbage started gurgling to the surface, sorta like a bad septic tank!) 1989 – 17th Corps graduates – LCM teaches Galatians to them, which will become to be known as the “Leaders Tapes” and later the “Galatians Tapes”. There, he gives his interpretation of what happened with CG and uses the term “fog years” for the first time referring to the 3 year period Geer was the puppetmaster. He discredits JAL, Geer and others who walked away from TWI. Sets himself up as the MOG once more. 1989-1990 – All Corps and AC Grads on the field listen to the tapes. The 90’s are declared the “Decade of Victory” – the word “prevailing” is saturated into the TWI vocabulary. 1990/91 – LCM goes out on the field to different areas to teach the “Acts Weekends” and show everyone that he’s back in charge. 1992 – 50th Anniversary – LCM teaches an “Advanced Class Special on Discerning of Spirits” at HQ’s. Later that year, his new “Defeating the Adversary” class comes out and replaces VP’s old “Dealing with the Adversary” class. The theme for that year is “Rise to the Word, Expand to the World”. The Household starts being stressed as the only place for spiritual growth. 1993 – The Homosexual Witch hunt begins! The May/June issue of the Way Magazine’s cover reads “WHAT DOES THE WORD SAY?”. The main articles were: • Not Ashamed of the Gospel: The Sin of Homosexuality, by L.Craig Martindale • On Homosexuality: Common Questions/Uncommon Answers, by Keith W. Jackson • To All K.T. Lunds in the Gunnison Valley (Article reprint from the Gunnision Country Times) by Ed Horney Even the letters section contains letters that all pertain to the evils of homosexuality – mostly letters about AIDS and the “don’t ask, don’t tell” military policy. Also in 1993 – LCM records his new “Advanced Class on Power for Abundant Living” 1993 Anniversary Theme “The Way of Holiness: Walk Ye In It!” (Note: The WOW Program and the ROA are still taking place and being promoted in the Way Magazine every year PFAL is still being run.) July 1994: War Declared on homosexuals with the Way Corps. Letter from Martindale to the Way Corps announcing a witch hunt for any homosexuals within the ranks. This letter features very explicit descriptions of homosexual sex acts and bestiality. Martindale sets the stage for an inquisition-like purge within The Way where a mere "genuine spiritual suspicion" is enough to bring someone in for interrogation. This purge led to hundreds being thrown out of The Way. "You should be thankful you're not in the Old Testament times, because there are some of us who would gladly execute you." - L. Craig Martindale "War Declared" from Waydale Docs - Adobe PDF format Theme for the ROA “God’s Call To Abundance” This is the Rock of Ages that LCM announced he was suspending the WOW program because of homosexuality. This was also the year that all Corps who were married to non-Corps were dropped as well as those who were considered “unproductive” About 400 people were dropped at that time. He addresses the debt problem in the Corps. Basically says get out of debt or get dropped. Waydale Documents letter (adobe.pdf file) 1995 – the new Foundational and Intermediate classes on The Way of Abundance and Power are recorded. Theme for 1995 ROA – Living Sanctified. Outreach Group 1 of the Way Disciples were send to 14 cities in the US and one in Canada. Tom and Barbara Lally are the coordinators of the program. That Rock of Ages was a class titled: “Living Sanctified”. It was not in the usual ROA format, but instead was like an Advanced Class format with teachings in the morning, household fellowships in the afternoon and another evening teaching. It is to be the last Rock of Ages. This is time when the term “The Household” is used of the TWI faithful and the term “Family of God” is demeaned. This is also the year that he plants the seeds for the “Owe No Man Anything” teachings. May 1995 – LCM announces that The Way Corps are to be made full time staff as of September 1, 1995 Some reasons: Anniversary 1996 – Donald E. Wierwille steps down and Rosalie F. Rivenbark is chosen to serve as the new VP. ------More to Come ------

Catcup said it all - if not for the Allens he'd still be screaming and spitting and cursing from the pulpit. But... CC also had some very good insight. It was getting pretty bad by the time Waydale appeared. I know I had been totally discontented for at least 5 years, and I know plenty of others who were headed down the same path. Craig's "owe no man anything" teaching - which included mortgages - was the doctrine that seemed to be hurting TWI the most. And the M&A policies between family members was considered pretty awful by many innies as well. "In a way, his ouster saved TWI from certain demise because they've managed to make Martindale the scapegoat for everything." Wwhat a great observation - I think you're absolutely right! If not for Lawsuit #1 he'd still be the prez, but I think it would be a much smaller ministry than the one he got kicked out of 4 years ago.

We know someone who was kicked out of TWI in the late 90's because his house was a mess. Now, I'll admit it was pretty bad, and I'm no Felix Unger and I wouldn't have liked to have lived there under those conditions. But the BC basically said he had all kinds of debbil spurts because his house was a mess. So the guy cleaned it up. He did a pretty good job, too, except for the one extra bedroom where he put all the junk that had been cluttering up the house to begin with. I mean, it was piled high! So the BC and his wife make "suprise" visits (ahem - inspections) to this guy's house whenever they feel like it just to make sure he's keeping those spirits out of his home and keeping things "decent and in order". On one occasion, they opened the door to the extra bedroom and freaked out on him. Said now they understood why he was still "devil spirit influenced" - because he didn't OBEY their orders. This is a guy who WANTED to stay in TWI - who'd been faithful since 1970 (or maybe before)! He did everything - went to every class, helped at every meeting, gave his 10, then 11 then 15% to them. AND THEY KICKED HIM OUT BECAUSE HIS HOUSE WAS MESSY! Where oh where is the humanity or the logic in that? "Anal retentive" is an understatement. Welcome Way Back - I got in way back then, too.

Kitty-cup! Hi there! Good to "see" you! xoxox You're right. I haven't forgotten how bad TWI became. But because I've been around WD and GS for so long I feel like everything has been said. We don't have as many innies here as we used to, so the information about what's going on in TWI is sparse. It just might be that TWI has become so boring (see their website) that there's nothing much to say about it. The current law-suit seems to be in neutral right now - so there isn't much to talk about there either. The last time we got riled up and joined forces was when Terry Bradshaw's little infomercial aired on MSNBC. It might be my imagination, but when we're discussing TWI, the in-fighting seems to slow down or even stop. Personally, the pro-VP threads have really turned me off. I don't like to start a new thread just to have it bumped down to page 2 or 3 because of the "praisebedocvic" threads. (I still think they should be elsewhere, but who am I to say?). But maybe they're so popular because we haven't had anything new to discuss for a while - just re-hashing the same old, same old. I thought about starting some old topics that haven't been discussed in a while - but when I checked - there weren't any! Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

I agree with Goey, too - not about the "drive by" thing - but about moving the Doctrinal forum(s) heading higher up on the main page. I think that, and moving the TWI doctrinal discussion threads off the About The Way forum might solve the problem. That way, the people who feel they need their thread responded to won't feel so slighted because they've been relegated to the bottom of the screen. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

I'm with Oakspear - I always thought that the About TWI forum should be discussing the TWI's practices, not their doctrines. But - instead of two doctrinal forums - one for TWI and one for general doctrinal discussions - why not combine and rename the doctrinal forum to: Doctrinal Discussions: TWI Teachings and/or General Theology. Or something like that. Some general doctrinal discussions often morph into discussing what TWI taught, and vice-versa. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

Not posters, just one poster as far as I can recall. I did have people jump in and help me deal with this one particular person - and it was much appreciated. I thanked most of these people privately. The way they helped was not by attacking the source of my conflict, but by agreeing with what I had to say at the time, and my right to say it. Come to think of it, some didn't agree with what I had to say at all - but they did post that I had the right to express myself as long as it was within the boundaries of the forum. I don't think I ever said Paw deserved any criticism that was thrown his way - my post - my one post on this thread - simply asked for the two battling parties to keep it to themselves. I also told them that I liked and appreciated them both. That was pretty much it. I will say the response I received from one of them I considered rude and unnecessary - which is why I haven't posted here again until now. The only reason I am posting is because I have an awful lot of respect for you, laleo, and think that I needed to respond to your previous post in which my name is mentioned. I only check out GS once or twice a day now. Sometimes I don't have the time (or energy) to read through a 10 - 15 page thread. I apologize if what I said in my previous post was out of bounds. I only skimmed through the thread before I posted. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

I missed Tom Bombadil as well - but he was easily removed. I think he only shows up one more time after his "chapter" is done with - or is it just that Galadriel and Gandalf talk about him? I don't remember. I am thrilled the film won everything, although I agree with Trefor - the awards were really for all three films - or one nine and a half hour film if that's the way you want to look at it! I agree that Jackson should have at least filmed the "Scouring" chapter - but I read in some magazine before the ROTK came out that he didn't film it because he didn't think it fit in the books either. I think it did - if for nothing else to show what happened to Saurman & Wormtongue. But, all in all - I think that the script writers did an amazing job in compressing the trilogy into three films. They stayed as true to the books as possible without leaving out most of the story line. Hope R. color>size>face> Does anyone know if "The Hobbit" will be made now that LOTR was so successful? Heck - The Shire set is probably still in tact in NZ - it wouldn't be too hard to go back and shoot there again!

The saddest thing for me is that I know Rocky and Zix and like them both for various reasons. I admire aspects of each of their personalities. (hmmmm makes it sound like they each have two personalities... can you say Sybill??) You get what I mean. I don't agree with either one of them all the time - and I don't think anyone agrees with anyone all the time! And ya know what - I don't make my disagreements with them PUBLIC on the forums. I email them - or anyone else for that matter - to criticize or to even praise them at times. Anyway - the point which I'm trying to make is PLEASE KEEP YOUR FIGHTS PRIVATE! How about getting each other's phone # and see how well you can communicate THAT way? Or email, or private topic, or any number of means of communication to keep the rest of the GS community uninvolved. It hurts me to see smart, witty, and otherwise rational people get so angry over petty things, when in real life, if they really knew each other, it would be settled in a phone call or two. Please guys - you know I love you both - cut it out - it isn't worth it. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Rocky has been around since Trancechat and used his real first name there, but I believe he's been Rocky since Waydale. I don't recall him ever having a problem with anyone until recently. P.P.S. THe yellow "alert" triangle has been here since the start of GS on the Infopoop site - but I don't think we knew about it until Paw told us what it was and how it works -I think about a month or two ago. Personally, I don't think I'd use it in the case of a wrong topic placement - I'd save it for more egregious violations of the rules. I think (and I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth) that's what Paw and the other moderators are suggesting when they need to be alerted.

HOORAY - and Six Feet Under in June!!!! The previews do look intense - I hope Carmella socks it to Tony big time... but I'm not so sure... Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

She is marvelous - a real talent in a sea of blonde Divas! Didn't know she was Shankar's daughter - I googled it and it seems they weren't very close. Her Texas roots show in this CD - it's really different from the first one - but I like it just as much, maybe more. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color> [This message was edited by Hope R. on March 06, 2004 at 19:06.]

As much as I love Bill Murray in other movies, I'm glad he didn't win the Oscar last night. It wouldn't have been right. I'm surprised Sophia Coppella won for best original screenplay - as far as I'm concerned, my 16 year old could have written something better than that. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

I won't go see it because it is too bloody. I can't handle that no matter what the subject of the film is. I have heard that the resurrection isn't part of the story line at all. In one interview I heard, a Methodist minister said: "I'm a Methodist, we got Jesus off the cross!" He was a bit surprised that the resurrection wasn't in the film. He said the whole tenet of Christianity is that JC rose from the dead. Thousands were crucified by the Romans - remember "Sparticus"? But the fact that JC got up made him the Messiah - not the fact that he died. I don't know - I tend to agree with him even though I'm not necessarily a heavy-duty Christian any more. If it's not in the film - it should have been - it makes more sense that way. But I'm still not going to see it. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

OMG - it was just so damn boring I could hardly stand it. What was the point pray tell????? I'm sorry - but why oh why is this movie getting so many awards. I love Bill Murray - but I'd rather watch "What About Bob?" about a dozen times rather than watch this one again. It wasn't bad, really, and it wasn't good - it wasn't anything at all except for maybe mind-numbing. The above reviewer is right - I NEVER want to go to Tokyo after this. Oh - and Groundhog Day is one of my very favorite movies - on my top 10 list for sure. But this one - YAWN... Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

What a happy, wonderful, fairy tale ending. I'm so glad that Carrie ended up with Big (oops, John, that is), that Charlotte is getting a baby from China, that Samantha has someone to really love (and oh, is he GORGEOUS) and that Miranda is finally learning to not be so uptight and take care of Steve's mom (brilliantly acted by Ann Meara). I've seen almost every episode and will miss this show tremendously!!! I'm glad the writers saw fit to give everyone a happy ending - that there was really no final conclusion - all the happy endings are left wide open for perhaps a reunion 5 years from now. Sniff sniff.... Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

OMG - I'm ROTFLMAO!!!!! My high schooler will love this one... though it's a bit vulgar to send to some of my more sophisticated liberal friends. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

My whole adult life Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

What percentage of those hits are because of us!!!??? I know I've looked at it a couple or three times since the ad went up, and I check in about once a month to see if there's anything (yawn) interesting there. I'd bet that half the numbers on that chart come from ex-Wayfers, and the other half come from loyal followers who were probably given permission to go on the internet to check it out and see how bee-yoo-tee-full it is! Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

Has anyone tried Dr. Phil's weight loss program? I have my last 15-20 to lose and have reached my plateau. I don't think I could do Atkins, and have caught Dr. Phil's show when he had his weight loss folks on. Thinking about buying the books but would love someone's perspective who has tried it. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Coffeegal - I have a GREAT animated graphic for you if you want to use it for your avatar:

It's 5:45 p.m. est and all three links work just fine. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

HAPPY BIRTHDAY WACKSTER!!!color>size> Hope it's happy and wacky!!! xoxoxox Hope R. color>size>face> damn! I had penguins dancing but they wouldn't work!!!color> [This message was edited by Hope R. on February 16, 2004 at 13:14.]

and... I've run into Derek Jeter a few times in our part of town. Twice at a local (not fancy) restaurant, and once while he was filling up his silver 'Vette at a Circle K mini-mart. Besides being adorable, he's a really nice guy. Never scoffs at a fan, always gives an autograph (even when he's in the middle of breakfast!). When I saw him at the gas station, two girls pulled up to the pump next to him, jumped out and asked if they could take his pic. He got someone else to take their pic-with his arms around them! He has donated to a lot of local school and charity auctions, a signed bat or ball or jersey. Like I said, an all-around nice guy. Wish I could say the same for some of the Buccaneers (can you say Keyshawn?). Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

Sometimes in the newpaper there's a "Community Service" page that prints articles about small businesses in the area. They're usually short, giving the details of the services the company provides with the address, hours, phone, etc. They always "pick" businesses that seem like they have something special to offer. They look like real news articles by the way they're presented in the paper, as if a reporter went out to that business and interviewed the owner and/or customers. Turns out, they're nothing more than paid advertising. No reporter ever set foot in any of those businesses. Most of the "articles" are fill-in-the-blank scripts that will work with any hairdresser, insurance agent, or cell phone company. One size fits all in each catagory - only the names have been changed! When I watched the video the second time (yeah - like a car-wreck - I just had to look), I realized that that 5 minute spot was just like one of those articles. Terry Bradshaw just read his script. He never went to TWI HQ's, and neither did any MSNBC representative. I even wonder whether anyone from Broadcast News went there. If they did, I'm surprised they didn't find the whole organization a bit strange. Hope R. color>size>face> ... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky, for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly? Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>

I was going to put this on the TWI commercial site, but it seems more appropriate here...

CC - what I meant was that if you go to the "Pick of the Week" site Pick of the Week and go to the "Pick A Segment" link, TWI is not listed as a feature segment on their site. Which means they got the ex-Way community's message and didn't make it available for anyone to re-view. TWI will probably keep that up on their site for a long time to get their money's worth out of it. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Did any of you read any of the FAQ's from that site? It's interesting... it basically says they can take any company and find the "golden nuggets in every story". From their information, it also seems like the organization contacts Broadcast News, not the other way around. Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now. - Stephen Stillssize>face>color>