Hope R.

I will go with John - but only if the Sickth Corpse can go, too! Hope R. color>size>face>

They're going to be on Letterman on Friday night. Hope R. color>size>face>

Saw that on CNN tonight. S&G were my first concert ever at Forest Hills Tennis Stadium in Queens. I saw them again a few years later at Hunter College on LI. I HAVE to get tickets if they're coming to Florida... Hope R. color>size>face>

I just read this whole thread again... Thanks, Tom - I'm so glad you are doing so well. Amazing, isn't it, how sanely we think without the scales of TWI covering our eyes? Wish I could meet you at the "weenie roast". :)--> Hope R. color>size>face>

Uppity - This photo made me cry for a long time. It's still hard for me to look at it. They're both gone - way too young. Joe Maestri took me to my first fellowship in Rye. He was a marvelous human being - smart, funny, talented. He died in the mid 90's (93 or 94). Too many people I know have died too young. Hope R. color>size>face>

Where is the nearest airport? I'm all for a cabin - I don't do tents. Are the leaves changing color about that time? I miss that a lot. love - Hope R. color>size>face>

Oh - I have also read all the Ann Rice Vampire books as well as her books about the Mayfair Witches! And I liked them!!! EEEEEEKKKKK - stick THAT one up your nose WayGB!

- you'll appreciate them more that way! Lindy - I love Michener. Historical novels are the best of both worlds, IMO. If you just skip the first hundred pages of Michener's books and get right down to the story, it doesn't seem as cumbersome - then you can go back and read the first 100 pages after you've finished the book. I thought I'd never get through "Hawaii", but that's the way I did it. It's one of my top 5 favorite books. I recently read "The DaVinci Code" by Dan Brown - a pretty good mystery with historical twists. Galen - you might like it, there are a lot of references to Masons in it. Of course, I read "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix". I also downloaded and burned the CD's (for my personal use, of course) and am listening to it in my van. I also just finished a wonderful book called "The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency" by Alexander McCall Smith. I loved it so much I ordered the 2nd & 3rd in this series from Amazon the day I finished it. For light reading I like mystery novels by Sue Grafton, Patricia Cornwell, Janet Ivanovich, the Kellermans and others of the same genre. They're great for travelling and I can knock them off in a day. I have always been a reader. Both my parents were as well. My kids are always reading something, even if it's not for school. I even read when I was in residence. There was a bookshelf in the College Division lounge stocked with all kinds of interesting novels and I would sneak in there at night and read them. It was such a nice break from reading VP's books. Oh- wait - they're the Word of God, aren't they??? oops!!!

Well fellow Sickth Corpse - July 25th will be the anniversary of our Graduation. I wonder how many of you are out there. I was really wanting to do some kind of reunion, but I guess that just didn't work out. We had fun, for the most part. If I can write off the Emporia months of our last year I'd say the whole experience wasn't too bad. But we were lucky - it didn't get really oppressive until around 1980. We were done by then. I have no regrets. The only sadness I have is that I'm pretty sure I won't ever see most of you again. Love Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. On the brighter side, July 21st will be THREE years since John and I were asked to leave TWI! Now THAT'S really something to celebrate!

I have always taken Allegra-D for seasonal allergies. It works better for me than anything else. Sudafed makes me too hyper, Zyrtec puts me to sleep and Claratin just plain didn't work. This year, when my I started sneezing again, I called to refill my Rx for Allegra-D. My pharmacist told me I had to try the over-the-counter Claritin first by order of my HMO!!! Now wait a sec - I tried Claratin when it was an Rx drug and it didn't do anything - I already knew that and told my pharmacist. Sorry, he said, he couldn't fill my Allergra Rx. I had to go to my allergy doctor and get an "over-ride". Now, for years, all I've had to do is call my allergy dr. and get my Rx renewed. Sometimes, I don't even have to do that if the Rx is still current, which was the case this year. Not that I don't like my allergy dr. - he's the best! But I was wasting both his and my time going there. But I did - and told him what was going on. He told me that he had literally hundreds of patients in the same boat as me. The big problem wasn't giving me the over-ride for Allegra, it was getting through to the insurance company! They had ONE line for Rx over-rides which, of course, was constantly busy. He said he had to hire one girl in his office just to make the calls every day. His frustration level was pretty high when it came to that subject. He loaded me up with enough samples for at least a month and told me they would give me a call when they finally got through to the HMO. It took a little over 2 weeks. I got my prescription - but I had to fight for it! Oh, and BTW, the co-pay had gone up from $15 to $30 - about the same cost as over-the-counter Claratin would have cost me. (Remember, those of us with a prescription card pay a low co-pay for our medication. Why should the insurance companies pay for our Rx when we can buy something over-the-counter. It costs us more, but the insurance companies much less.) Don't get me going on Health Insurance or HMO's... it's a soap-box I tend to stand on for a long time! Hey Zix - good post - and I agree as well.

Thanks QQ... I forwared the link to a lot of my friends who aren't former Wayfers. I know that when I looked up herbal remedies for hot flashes, black cohosh was mentioned in almost every on-line article I read. My sister is a breast cancer survivor, and I have to be very careful about all this stuff. Just because something is herbal or natural doesn't mean it's good for you. (sorry herbiejuan... I don't mean you!)

Ms. Betty Bowers has her opinions of Harry... check out Betty Bowers site! (hee hee)

Happy birthday Sushi! Miss you in chat... See you in cyberspace -- xoxox Hope

My darlin' hubby is a half a century old tomorrow - April 30th. He wants to get a pie in his face and go bungee jumping. I will be able to accommodate the first request almost immediately - but our children want the first shot! Honey - I love you - Happy birthday. I know you'll have at least fifty more... xoxox Hope R. color>size>face> "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Act I Scene 5size>

Geez - I think this needs to be brought up to the top again.... to remind us that the answer to the question is: NO!!!!color>size> Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>

How did this get back to the top? I thought it was buried weeks ago....

The Word of BOD --- I love it!!! A new coined phrase hits the Cafe!!! Thanks NL - :D--> Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>

I see what you're saying Napkinlady. IMO, The BOD is easing up to lull people into a false sense of security. Everything is wonderful at Wayworld. No more pressure. No more demands. I think I'll give more money to them now that they're nice again... The other thing to think about is once these innies are lulled into a false sense of security and are dug in even deeper than ever, the BOD can announce that revelation has changed once more and the old "present truth" is new again, or they will come up with another doctrine of manipulation and control. They've had their hand in the innies lives for so long, there's no way they're just going to let go and leave them alone. Remember, fingerprints don't change. Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>

Look what happened to us when John honestly tried to confront deception - and he did it quite adequately IMO.

At the time this happened, we were told by a former region leader who had also been on staff that after we got the tour and lunch, we would have been brought into a private room or office in the OSC building and been screamed at and "confronted" about all our questions by a number of heavy TWI hitters. This man said he'd seen it happen many times when he was a staffer. He said the reason they want people there is so they are in control of the situation and have the upper hand. As you can see by John's response to Rosalie, we chose not to make the trip! We were expected to stop whatever it is we were doing, find someone to watch our kids, pay for plane fare to Dayton and rent a car to get to HQs. We weren't given a time frame, but our BC said the sooner we go the better. The BC's wife also said that she would have considered it an honor to be invited to HQ's by the WOG and couldn't believe we didn't rush up there immediately! Anyway - it's all off topic! But as the song goes, I love to tell the story... Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>

Just Me - I was in your situation for 5 years. I desperately wanted out of TWI but my husband felt that staying in was the best way to help change things. He didn't have blinders on when it came to TWI's problems, but felt that eventually, it would become the TWI he used to love. So I waited. I went to fellowships. I went to Branch Meetings. I refused to go out of town to anything - that was the only thing I insisted on. I prayed every day. My prayer was almost like a litany - "God - Please let my husband see the light and get us out of the ministry." I don't know whether God had anything to do with it, probably not! But after LCM was demoted to head of the "research department" (ha! ha! ha! ha!) and nothing really changed after the first law suit was announced, my husband wrote a letter to Miz Rivenbark making heartfelt suggestions of how to effect (affect?) change in TWI. The answer was less than satisfactory. After he responded to that, we were kicked out. (See "Letters to Rosalie" on Grease Spot's main site.) I am glad I stayed in for my husband's sake. As I said in a previous post, I wanted him to see the light for himself, not because I shoved it in his face.

"I see a little silhouetto of a man Scaramouch, scaramouch will you do the fandango?" Poor old Freddie Mercury - bizarre as they come - but he had a great voice. I recently burned a CD that has mostly vocal rock group songs like "Bohemian Rhapsody" and "Your Move" by Yes. Big sounds, long songs. Great for driving! Have you noticed that songs written in 3/4 time tend to be more "catchy" than most? Maybe it's me - but I tend to remember them easier. Haven't posted here in ages - too much to catch up on. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Got my Dixie Chicks tix for May!!! Hooray!

I recently received a pamphlet from John Juedes called "Will The Real Author Please Stand Up". In it, he compares VP's 1972 and 1957 RTHST books with Stiles 1948 book. There are 3 columns side by side. The 1957 version is 90% word-for-word plagiarized. The 1972 version has been edited a bit - the words are the same but they are placed in a different order. Sort of like: "He also stole Kenyon's work" vs. "Kenyon's work was stolen as well" - but the gist is the same. He also compares, side by side, chapter 3 in "The New Dynamic Church" (aka "the green book") - "How to Be A Christian" (pages 35-41) with a chapter in Kenyon's book called "The Father and His Family" (page 229). Here's just one example: VPW: "Did you ever realize that salvation is a gift, that it is not necessary that you go any place to get it." Kenyon: "Did you ever stop to think that salvation is a gift, that it is unnecessary for you to go anywhere to get it?" He also compares VP's work to Bullinger's "How to Enjoy The Bible", "Selected Writings" and "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" and many others. No where did VP use quotes or footnote any of his "borrowed" writings. John also sent me photocopies of Stiles pages and VP's pages so I could see them for myself. You may not like John Juede's delivery - but the facts speak louder than his opinions. Like it or not, VP took what wasn't his and claimed it as his own. Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>

This is posted with permission from John Juedes, who wrote the article. I thought it was one of the best explanations of why it is dead wrong to take credit for someone else's work. You may have read it all before - but I thought it would be a good thing to post here. Why Plagiarism is a Big Deal Some ex-followers of TWI excuse VP Wierwille's plagiarism, saying that VPW admitted that he learned things from others, and once in a while he mentioned them or their books by name. But this shows that the ex-followers misunderstand what plagiarism is. Everyone learns from others, but only a few dishonest writers plagiarize. Plagiarism is COPYING from an author. When VP wrote books, he put his name on the cover, saying "I wrote this-- no one else." When writers quote another authors, they cite the source, saying "I wrote this book-- but not this paragraph, I'm only copying this part from the author I'm naming now." VPW copied A LOT from other authors, but didn't admit that he did by putting their names in the text or notes. So readers all assumed, "VPW wrote this whole book," which is one thing that impressed people. They figured that if VPW could write lots of books, he must have studied the Word a lot and found out stuff himself. This drew a lot of followers. But this was all a lie, because vast sections of "VPW's" writings weren't his-- they were copied word for word, without references. VP lied like this for 30 years, from the 1st or 2nd edition of RTHST to a Way Magazine article just before he died. VP doubled the lie by saying often that he learned on his own. Remember the part of Power for Abundant Living when VP said he took ALL his books to the dump and read the Word alone? He said, "I hauled over 3,000 volumes of theological works to the city dump. I decided to quit reading around the Word. Consequently, I have spent years studying the Word..." (P. 119-120). Or the great story in The Way Living in Love in which VP tells a fawning Elena Whiteside that "He (God) spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others" (p. 178). TWI thought this was so fantastic that it dates its anniversary to this alleged event rather than to the formation of TWI. Have you read the intro of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today in which he says he "put aside all I had heard and thought out myself, and I started anew with The Bible as my handbook as well a my textbook" (p. X). Then VPW copied 70% of RTHST directly from other authors. He wrote that in the 3rd edition, but in the second edition he admitted learning from "someone." The fact that he replaced his statement that he learned from someone (J.E. Stiles, whom he never mentioned by name) with a statement that he learned it all himself from the Bible alone shows how consciously he lied for his own self-promotion. This isn't the kind of character or spiritual leader to admire. Why didn't Stiles, E.W. Bullinger, E.W. Kenyon, B.G. Leonard and others make a fuss when VP stole their work? VP is the small-timer here. By the time VPW got more than a couple thousand followers (the size of literally thousands of individual churches across the country) it was already the mid-1970s. By that time, Stiles, Kenyon, Cliffe, Starr, and Bullinger, had long lost track of VP and were probably all dead. When Leonard finally found out about VP's plagiarism, he started adding explicit and blunt copyright notes in his books warning people not to plagiarize. Even at TWI's peak, VP was basically an unknown outside of towns which hosted his "root locations." VP's books were never available in bookstores or offered for sale via radio ads (although this may have been attempted once without success) -- only by taking the class and getting on TWI's mailing list. By controlling sale of the books closely, VP limited his exposure. If TWI hadn't been mentioned in articles along with many other cults during the cults craze of the 1970's, it'd been almost totally unknown on a national scale. I've spent 20 years dropping the names VPW and TWI and getting just blank stares. VPW and TWI have always had greatly inflated views of themselves, their influence and nature. At it's core, plagiarism is laziness, lying and egotistic self-promotion. Plagiarism is laziness because VP seldom studied the Bible on his own, but copied and read others' writings. Plagiarism is lying because he led readers to believe that he wrote the books himself, rather than making clear in footnotes that he copied others' words and ideas. Plagiarism is egotistic self-promotion, because VP tried to make himself look like a prodigious author when he was only a deceptive copyist. Many of the authors VP copied from were cultic and recognized only by nonChristians. For instance, Albert ("Let go and Let God") Cliffe, was a full blown spiritist (medium who tried to contact spirits, which TWI condemned) and George Lamsa promoted wild theories accepted mainly by New Thought groups like Unity School of Christianity. But Noting WHAT VP copied from them is as important than who he copied from. He didn't copy "normal" biblical teachings from them (for instance, Bullinger, Stiles and others believed that Jesus had a God-nature as well as a human nature). He mainly copied teachings that were peculiar, unusual, bizarre. Lots of Pentecostals taught receiving the Spirit and speaking in tongues, but Stiles alone taught Inhaling the Spirit, which VPW thought was peculiar enough to copy. Lots of people teach there is a Semitic/Hebrew influence in the Gospels, but only Lamsa taught the extreme and bizarre teaching that the whole Bible was originally authored in Aramaic. He didn't take the part of Bullinger that said that "Son of God" was a divine title- he took the part about four crucified, with slanted and inaccurate definitions of allos/heteros. Many more examples could be listed. VPW fit the description in 2 Timothy 4: "the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." VPW had itching ears and wanted peculiar things to say. Then he could "prove" that he alone read the Bible for himself without "tradition" to slant his reading. Then he could gain followers for himself alone. Craig Martindale, who succeeded VP as "the Teacher," had to stretch to come up with other bizarre stuff, but he managed with Eve a lesbian, and the idea that all military metaphors in the New Testament must be athletic, and others. VP taught him well. Dr. John Juedes, 2000 Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>

Seaspray - Radar is correct about the number of WAP grads who are around. It started running for grads only in 1995. At that time, the number was a bit higher than it is today, and all grads HAD to take it to remain in good TWI standing. So 5000 WAP grads isn't that far off. A long while back I did a poll asking when people left TWI. There were over 100 responses. About 50% left between 1985 - 1989 with a few who left before VPW died in 1985, the other 50% left after "the fog years" - that's about 1989 to the present. There were also a few brave souls who admitted they were still in. Remember that GS isn't a Christian forum. It is a forum about The Way International. The whole site is not about PFAL alone - nor is this thread. Radar - "not everybody took the same cruise" :D--> !! Yeah - some of us were sailing around in the Bermuda Triangle for years! Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>