Hope R.

Ooo Ooo - I actually have something to contribute!!! Re: Angels singing I went to my old RC -Bob M. and mentioned that if angels could talk, they could sing. Since we were taught they looked and spoke and acted like men, they must be able to sing like men. Just because the bible says that they didn't sing in that particular situation doesn't mean they can't sing!!! He pondered for a minute and said - "makes sense to me." Don't know if he ever passed it along to the "research" department though! Hope R. color>size>face> I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>

Not to derail - but Rafe, could you tell me which TWI book you quoted regarding the women in the kingdom being the property of the king? I looked for it (and I'll admit - I skimmed), and couldn't find it. Thanks! Oh.. btw - Jerry, good to "see" you again. I didn't participate in your discussions way back when, but I read them with great interest. Thanks to you, too. Hope R. color>size>face> THREE CHEERS FOR THE BUCCANEERS!!!size> color>

Kathy - I got that one a few days ago and added another thing to the list before I forwarded it... .... You find yourself looking for the "send" button on your home phone. Hope R. color>size>face> THREE CHEERS FOR THE BUCCANEERS!!!size> color>

Didn't Dean Ellenwood and Larry Pannarello write the above? I know they co-wrote "Daddy's Arms" - but thought they'd written The Price He Paid as well. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Ted - next time you talk to Stevie, send her my love. She was one of the only Way Prod people who encouraged me without criticism. She's one of the good ones. GO BUCS!!!size> color>

We be grillin' with our neighbors who have a big-screen TeeVee! Ribs and brats and burgers... I'm bringing some really hot bean-dip and nachos. Don't know what else will be there except the Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color>

Bowtwi wrote: Yup - and even easier to leave after the first lawsuit and LCM's excommunication. We got kicked out, but I would have rather left under my own steam. What I wanted to say was "you can't fire me - I QUIT!" - but never had the opportunity. I know I suffered for over 5 years by staying in when I wanted out. Getting the boot was a relief for me. But I agree with what bowtwi said, and will go back even further: I think it was tougher to leave OR get kicked out when VP was running things. Most of us were so convinced that anyone who left was possessed or insane that we wrote them off - they'd "tripped out". The isolation these people experienced was probably devastating to them. So many people left after PoP, sometimes whole fellowships, so at least you had company no matter how you left TWI. I've always compared leaving TWI to quitting smoking. It's hard at first - you suffer from withdrawal, you crave it, but know it's not good for you so you stay away from it. As time passes, each day it gets easier and easier to live without it, you don't think about it that often and when you do, you have no desire to go back to it. Eventually, you can't believe you ever did anything to harm yourself so badly. And finally, just the thought of it is repugnant. Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color>

I think the in-rez Corps were subjected to slave-like conditions moreso than the people in the local fellowships were. Trees were planted, ditches were dug, buildings were cleaned, toilets were scrubbed... there was painting and sewing and raking and cooking and a multitude of blue and white collar work going on in Emporia, Rome City and HQ's for years - and the people doing the work were being paid NOTHING to do it. I remember when TWI sold Emporia - John & I talked about how much "slave labor" was put into the place. The Sickth Corps was the first large Corps to be in rez there - and we worked our butts just getting the place livable. We got $30 a month in "allowance" - room, board and teachings... that was it. I'm not saying that people in the local areas weren't and aren't still in bondage to TWI doctrines and practices. But I think the in-rez Corps were treated more like slaves right from the get-go. Because of the physical obedience to the work program, it was easier to keep us in the same kind of bondage mentally. Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color>

Boys, boys... I've stayed away from this intellectual discussion of all things Wierwillian just because, well just because... But now you're just getting plain silly! Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color>

Socks - Dya remember when we went with you and Mrs. Socks to see J.T. at the Bayfront Center in St. Pete? I have photos - some of the best I've ever taken. I was using my new Olympus OM10 with 1000 speed film - no flash. Somehow, I got really close to the stage. I didn't know what I was doing - but the photos came out terrific. I'll have to scan some and send them your way. Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color> The Secret O' Life by James Taylor The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time Any fool can do it There ain't nothing to it Nobody knows how we got to The top of the hill But since we're on our way down We might as well enjoy the ride The secret of love is in opening up your heart It's okay to feel afraid But don't let that stand in your way 'Cause anyone knows that love is the only road And since we're only here for a while Might as well show some style Give us a smile Isn't it a lovely ride Sliding down Gliding down Try not to try too hard It's just a lovely ride Now the thing about time is that time Isn't really real It's just your point of view How does it feel for you Einstein said he could never understand it all Planets spinning through space The smile upon your face Welcome to the human race Some kind of lovely ride I'll be sliding down I'll be gliding down Try not to try too hard It's just a lovely ride Isn't it a lovely ride Sliding down Gliding down Try not to try too hard It's just a lovely ride Now the secret of life is enjoying the passage of time.

Socks et al... What do you think of all these young bands that are doing covers of other songs? I was in a store today and heard "Somebody's Baby", a Jackson Browne song, done by another group. At first, I thought it was the original because it sounded just like it - but after I listened for a few seconds, I realized it was a cover band. I wondered - why bother? This isn't the only time I've heard a cover of another song that sounded exactly like the original. Not too long ago, I heard a cover of Steve Miller's "Abracadabra" that was practically a clone! It also seems that most of the cover songs are from the 70's. Perhaps the old hits are a sure thing. It baffles me... Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color>

I feel the same way about Orientalisms. I think some of the explanations were made up. I'm no bible scholar - but I've seen a few books like "Manners and Customs of the Bible" that were much better at explaining some of the parables in the gospels than the K.C. Pillai "Orientalisms" teachings were at explaining them. The "bottle in smoke" comes to mind... and a few others that were a bit "off" that were similar to that one. Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color>

No one ever looked for me either... but then again, I used my own name so if they had been looking for me they would have found me without having to post it here!!! I don't see people I know very often either. Even if I did - I probably wouldn't know where they were anyway! Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color>

Thanks to all of you.... When John & I decided to get married, we weren't living in the same areas. I was living in West Palm Beach and he was living here in Tampa. We'd been dating for a little over a year. Right before I was going to move to Tampa, I saw our Limb Coor - Gerald W. He didn't like John for whatever reasons he may have had, but we always got along fairly well. He said "Why are you moving to Tampa? If it's to be with John Richeson, I hope you don't move there and get hurt. I think you can do better." I told him that I didn't think I could do better. That I'd been dating (in the ministry) for 10 years and that I didn't think there was anyone out there better for me than John. She shrugged his shoulders and said "okay - so you want me to do the wedding?" It was all I could do to bite my tongue not to say there was no way on God's green earth I'd have him perform the ceremony when he thought I could "do better"!!! What NERVE!!!! Besides - we both knew we wanted Joe Guarini to do it - he was happy for both of us!!! Hope R. color>size>face> GO BUCS!!!size> color>

From the PFAL Class: "He's coming back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords... He's coming back as Lord, God, Almighty and heads are gonna roll!" If the original PFAL was God-breathed, why did VP feel the need to update it in 1977? Oh, I know you're going to say that after he taught PFAL '77 he realized he couldn't improve on the first class... but lemme ask you this... The "original" PFAL class was taught live. Jesus was God back then. Crosses were okay. The only reason VP put the class on film was because of the demand for it - not because it was "God-breathed"... and that's documented in TWI's history books... most recently Mrs. Wierwille's and Mrs. Owens' writings. Could it be that PFAL '77 was just plain bad? Too much entertainment - too much audience participation - too many audio mistakes??(misprounonunced words, verbal slips, etc.) It is still mind-boggling to me that anyone could think the word of such an incredibly flawed man could be straight from the mouth of God Almighty. I didn't even believe that when I was in TWI... mainly because of errors like the one I quoted above. The books are full of them, too. Rafe has done a remarkable job in dissecting the blue book and has started on the green book (finished?). The problem with you, Mike, is that you are totally closed-minded when it comes to VP. You will never admit he was wrong or evil because it will pull your belief-system right out from under you and you will be left feeling very empty. It has happened to many people here who never even got close to the degree of Wierwille worship you exhibit. IMO, The thing about VP was that he was secretive and sly about his shortcomings - he had them covered by others. he blamed others for mistakes in HIS shoddy research. Ask anyone who was in the research department what happened if they discovered that something VP taught was wrong. The short answer is that they were told to make it fit - even if they knew it was bad research. (Geek, 3Cents, OC??? Please re-tell some of your Research Dept. stories). I know countless people have told you to wake-up, get a grip, get help, get on meds, and numerous other things that would probably benefit you in some way. I think the fact is that no one can change your mind for you. You have to do it yourself. But I would suggest that you take a deep look into what you've based your entire belief system on - it's a cistern full of holes. Someday I hope you will see it. Hope R. color>size>face> That's it for me on the "Mike" stuff - it's a waste of my time and way too frustrating. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

I feel a lot more informed after watching the green box commentary. I was glad to see that all the writers felt bad to some degree about having to leave out certain scenes - mostly because of time constraints. I still think they should have kept in all the gifts of Galadriel and the elves because they have already come up in T2T. I have yet to watch the 3rd & 4th disks of the set... also because of time constraints!!! Hope R. color>size>face> Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

BarMitzvahNY.com And this was just the first link I followed when I Googled - "Bar Mitzvah" history of - ! I actually found it in about 30 seconds... but I don't think Mike would have believed me if I'd said anything under a minute. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. The bold and italics were my addition. Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

I found this in about 1 minute using "Google". Hope R. color>size>face> Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

Fresh: "Can someone point me to those verses of scripture that command us to stay in a corrupt organization at all costs?" Nope - I can't point out any at all.. not without Biblical Research, - ya know - Greek interlinears, Aramaic lexicons and literal translations according to usage!!! Then, maybe I can squeeze enough private interpretation into a verse that will fit your inquiry! StayedTooLong (me too) I think you and Outin88 covered all the bases. I think many people who are still in are in the category of "they know it is happening [or what has happened] but minimize it." Hope R. color>size>face> Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

Allen Sherman was the king of comedy in the Catskill resorts in the 60's. My parents had almost all his albums and I grew up listening to his parodies of everything from hymns to Broadway show tunes. My favorite was "You Gotta Have Skin" - sung to the tune of "You Gotta Have Heart" from "Damn Yankees" "Click Here (it's an mp3) Hope R. color>size>face> Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

I LOVE "Rocky Horror"! Thanks Firebee - you beat me to it! I don't know if it still shown it in theaters. If it is in your area - go see it! At one point in time, there was a theater in almost every city that showed the movie every Friday and Saturday night at midnight. People would come dressed up as the characters, bring props (toast, umbrellas, rice, etc.) and say the lines with the movie characters. I only went one time and it was a blast! No one told me about all the stuff that was going to be thrown around, so I got pretty icky, but it was the most fun I ever had at the movies. Shoot, Dot, I was in TWI for a long time too, and knew about Rocky Horror and Tommy! The album "Tommy" was around in the late 60's - so I heard about that, and knew almost every song, before I got involved in TWI. I think I found out about "Rocky Horror" after I graduated the Corps, it had been around for a few years already. DamitJanet - and I thought you were a big fan of RH, simply because of your "handle"... give it another try!!!! Hope R. color>size>face> Let's do the "Time Warp" again - Riff Raff

I looked at Corgi's or Beagles when I was choosing a breed. Also Westhighland Terriers. I'd still like to find a local Westie rescue and check it out. I have a few friends with Beagles and they said they've both had problems with howling and chewing. Don't know why. I've also seen Cocker Spaniels pee when they get excited - or even if they're just plain happy to see someone! There are different problems with every dog breed. I once had a Basenji. Now, THAT'S another story. Basenji's are beautiful dogs, and I read all these great things about them before getting a puppy. Little did I know they were nearly impossible to train and very destructive. I had to unplug lamps because she chewed through lamp cords. When we put her on the back lanai, she chewed the bottom of the wood cabinets, then she chewed through the screens to get out in the yard. So I called a dog training school to see if it would help. When the woman asked me what kind of dog it was, and I told her it was a Basenji, she laughed... loud... for a long time. After 11 months of the dog from hell, I gave her to my vet and told him to find her a good home. They did. I have no idea where she is today and I hope she's okay - but she was the wrong dog for our family. Hope R. color>size>face> Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

SC - yes! There are powder-puff and hairless Chinese Cresteds. The hairless type comes with all sorts of skin problems and frankly, are really strange looking creatures. And you're right - you don't know what you're going to get from an animal shelter or rescue organization. Most of the rescue orgs try to get as much information as they can about where the dog has been, but the shelters usually know very little. But remember Benji? He was found at a shelter - and so were many other "Hollywood" dogs! I agree with the pet store comments, both Sunesis' and WateredGarden's. It breaks my heart when I go into a pet store and see those cuties behind a glass wall in their cages. I want to hold each one of them. I bet they don't even take them outside because there is always poop and pee underneath the cages. That also makes it very hard to crate train a dog. Normally, a dog won't "go" where it sleeps - but in the cases of pet stores, that behavior has been altered just by the mere fact that they aren't taken outside to do their business. They'll go whenever the urge hits them. Plus, almost all dogs at pet shops come from puppy mills. And JJ is right, buying from those pet stores helps support the puppy mill industry, an industry that should be better regulated or shut down... Hope R. color>size>face> Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

Yikes - so many replies - I just noticed this thread!!! I adopted a rescued dog in October. She's a Powder-puff Chinese Crested (huh?). They look like this! I found her through the links that Radar posted - Petfinder - a great site. My neighbor has them so I knew about the breed, otherwise I would have never heard of them. Great dogs, no shedding, small but not teenie, smart, easy to train. I would caution you if you choose to adopt a rescue. Chloe is wonderful and we love each other. But... she doesn't love everyone in my family, mainly my 12 year old. We think (and it's a good guess) that she was probably abused by children sometime in the years before she came to us (she's between 4 & 5 years old). I will not give up on her because I feel very responsible since I was the one who decided to take her from the rescue organization. She didn't show any hostility to my daughter until I'd signed the papers and the lady from the rescue shelter left my house. I figured I'd just give it a week or so... it's been 2 1/2 months - and she still doesn't like my kid - she's terrified of her. We know she was in a puppy mill because she has a huge tattoo underneath her left rear thigh - it's awful. They also "de-barked" her - which is so cruel I can't even begin to tell you how angry I get when I think about it. Anyway - I think getting a rescue is a wonderful thing. It's easier than getting a puppy if you're not home all day. Chloe came house trained, crate trained and leash trained! But - rescues are often dogs that have been abused, neglected or ones with health problems. So if you decide to get a rescued dog - ask for a trial run. Spend the money to take it to the vet, even if your rescue organization gives you a clean bill of health. And make sure you can get your "donation" back if it doesn't work out. I love my dog. I never thought I'd get so attached to this little creature as much as I have in such a short time. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Our adoption fee was $200. Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

Ala - you have me confused with Lisa L.... I never sounded that good. I remember the first time I heard her voice... Bob W. called me into his office, knowing how much I loved Joni Mitchell and said, "Listen to this, Joni Mitchell took the class" and hit the play button of his cassette recorder. The voice that came out sounded JUST like Joni Mitchell - amazing... He then told me he was kidding and told me who it was - Lisa L. I'm not going to lie and tell you I wasn't greencolor> with envy!!! Because we both wrote a song about The Family, people thought I was her and vice versa. No comparison... I sounded like a frog next to her! Hope R. color>size>face> Socks - Todd Rundgren - incredible musician. I believe his first album was recorded in the basement of his parents' home and he played all the instruments, in other words, he was the Nazz! Don't know if that's true or not. He's another brilliant musician who never quite went mainstream except for a few pop songs. Oh - and I forgot to mention something else - two words: Steely Dan!!! Hello - it's me! [This message was edited by Hope R. on January 13, 2003 at 14:34.]

Where is Stevie Wonder??? I love him. He's a genius. Last time I saw him was on the Tribute to Heroes after 9/11 and more recently on Target(?)commercials. I'm listening to "Songs in the Key of Life" even as I type... Before I got in TWI, Joni Mitchell was God. I learned how to play in open D and open G tunings, and got a dulcimer for my birthday. I still keep one of my guitars tuned to an open D in case I'm feeling "Blue"!!! Hope R. color>size>face> Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll